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Old November 28th, 2004, 01:10 AM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
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Invent Your Own Ideology

Ian created the well-thought Unionist ideology in the Unity TL. Can anyone else think of some sort of ideology that can captivate nations and nation-blocs, leading to world war? The closest ones I’ve found were also in his TLs, such as the established form of anarchism in his Atomic League TL and militarism in Draka 2.

Also, try to keep your ideology independent of a major religion. There have already been both Christian fascists and socialists; both Muslim socialists and nationalists exist. Such big faiths can support any variety of interpreters and religions. Also, while both National Socialism and the Japanese form of imperialism had ideas based on divinity and destiny (albeit wackier ones in the former, what with the combination of old-school racism, Odinism, and theosophy), they were pretty much different from mainline religions.
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Old November 28th, 2004, 01:20 AM
Raymann Raymann is offline
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How about a kind of "militant democratic nationalism" where it is believed in suppressing foreigners for the benefits of your nation. For instance having a unified democratic America invade, conquer, and assimilate Mexico for our benefit and later giving Mexicans full rights now that they are Americans. Tell you the truth it doesn't seem far fetched.
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Old November 28th, 2004, 01:29 AM
Musketeer513 Musketeer513 is offline
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I like that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymann
How about a kind of "militant democratic nationalism" where it is believed in suppressing foreigners for the benefits of your nation. For instance having a unified democratic America invade, conquer, and assimilate Mexico for our benefit and later giving Mexicans full rights now that they are Americans. Tell you the truth it doesn't seem far fetched.
Strange cause I really feal that way.
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Old November 28th, 2004, 03:15 AM
Raymann Raymann is offline
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Well not in those words but I'd like us to be more 'agressive' in exporting democracy under the American system. Hell half the world was colony of some nation or another and most were left as a democracy but devolved into anarchy. The best way to learn democracy is to live under a democratic government, preferably an established one.
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Old November 28th, 2004, 04:07 AM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
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Yeah, but I'm looking for an ideology that seeks a utopia and creates dystopias. Communism did that. Nazism sought that.
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  #6  
Old November 28th, 2004, 07:14 AM
wkwillis wkwillis is offline
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Science Fiction authors design ideologies pretty well. 'Iron Sunrise' by Stross has a nasty Tiplerian variant where you are attempting to instantiate the unborn god so he can render judgement on everybody, with you as the favored angels.
Tipler's thesis was that we would one day have the capability to compute the universe and rerun it with interesting variations. A collorary of this thesis is that we have already done so, that is, that we are in fact a simulation.
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  #7  
Old November 28th, 2004, 02:22 PM
Grey Wolf Grey Wolf is offline
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I think you could certainly run with some of the movements which in OTL ended up squashed, such as a kind of empire federalism for Britain that would have had a sort of imperial government, kept the dominions tied to it more closely and lasted longer. Within the model the aim is for the colonies to move to self-governing dominion status, and federate within the empire.

Grey Wolf
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  #8  
Old November 28th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Arch-Angel Arch-Angel is offline
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Corporate Fascism. All the hate with none of the state control, also called American Fascism, Capitalist fascism.
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Old December 1st, 2004, 05:08 AM
Mako-Chan Mako-Chan is offline
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Based on some of my own ideas as of late...

Taken from IBTINFO.GLOBENET:

Centralism:

Centralism is a right-wing authoritarian variant of futurist ideology. It seeks to create a strictly regimented society focused on nationalistic, scientific, and often militaristic goals. It arose in England during the 1930's under Arthur Canton and his Centralist Party.

© 1978-2004 IBT Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
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Last edited by Mako-Chan; December 1st, 2004 at 05:21 AM..
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  #10  
Old December 1st, 2004, 08:25 AM
Tony Jones Tony Jones is offline
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Synarchism, from Shikaku-Mon in GURPS Alternate Earths 1.
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  #11  
Old December 1st, 2004, 11:01 AM
Scarecrow Scarecrow is offline
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what about civil disorerly democracy? instead of voting the election is actualy a civil war, and the survivers rule!
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  #12  
Old December 1st, 2004, 11:55 AM
Alayta Alayta is offline
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Thats at least a questionalble idea of democracy.
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  #13  
Old December 1st, 2004, 05:42 PM
Max Sinister Max Sinister is offline
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I think you can make a questionable ideology out of everything, if you only pretend you're always right, even if it's your fault that people are killed and the economy is wrecked because of your decisions.
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  #14  
Old December 6th, 2004, 01:29 AM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by POTUS P.Diffin
Taken from IBTINFO.GLOBENET:

Centralism:

Centralism is a right-wing authoritarian variant of futurist ideology. It seeks to create a strictly regimented society focused on nationalistic, scientific, and often militaristic goals. It arose in England during the 1930's under Arthur Canton and his Centralist Party.

© 1978-2004 IBT Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
That sounds a lot like Centrum in the GURPS game. Anything else from that site?
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  #15  
Old December 7th, 2004, 06:38 AM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
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I’m rethinking this thread, and I want to concentrate on people making their own system for a totalitarian gov’t instead. Come to think of it, it’s pretty easy to create your own ideology (unless it’s universal, like socialism or fascism), but it’s harder to make it into something that can create a supervillain. And if there is some real gov’t that is happy but not democratic (Singapore, anyone?) then please inform me of your idea.

The problem is that most crazy ideologies are based on universal ideas, like Communism helps everyone by making them truly equal, and fascism seeks to create a purified, perfect version of a better age by making a certain class better than anyone else.

Unionism from the TL is an utopian dream; thus, when it fails it basically kills a lot of people while making the nation strong but backwards in some areas. This thread is also based on the “Musings on Evil Empires” article, too.

I will also state what I think about the earlier ideas, though most aren’t really totalitarian. The first of the proposals that I will take seriously thus far is the “militant democratic nationalism” one, where democratic nations take over other nations to create a system where the conquered nation is democratized and the conqueror gains access to the resources located there. It’s pretty win-win, except that it’s basically democracy at the point of a gun, which is not 100% effective. In any case, I don’t think it’s really totalitarian. It’s not based on extremism or a blood-stained path to utopia either, just a lot of aggression. Come to think of it, it’s a lot like colonialism, conquering other nations for their resources under the guise of spreading civilization.

Centralism sounds interesting, but the description above is too vague.

Corporate fascism? I think that while corporations can have a lot of influence on a nation, it can’t actually be used to control a nation directly. What, so will the nation be in the hands of a CEO, everyone will be considered employees, and corporate terminology and structure will be forced into culture? Sure, corporations may govern by proxy, but an actual nation based on the structure of companies seems far-fetched. And it can’t be used as an excuse to take over the world. Companies need someone to sell things to, and that can’t work if the majority of the world is some sort of oppressed, impoverished underclass under the iron thumb of one company.
I have thought of some sort of neo-feudalism involving companies before, but I’ll leave that for another thread. This one is about totalitarian, authoritarian evil empires.
I wonder how Kramer Associates did it.

“British imperial federalism” above doesn’t seem like much of a different ideology, just more of empires with democratic states. It’s not really a different sort of government, either, just policy.

Is legalism from the Chinese Qin dynasty the same thing as what Hobbes wanted?

Finally, I’ll go over the gov’t types offered by Ian Montgomerie in his TLs:

Militarism in Draka2: OTL fascism, as far as I can tell.
Unionism in Unity: Best bloody dystopian utopia I’ve ever read in AH.
Neo-anarchism in Atomic League: How is it different from extreme communism?
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  #16  
Old December 7th, 2004, 07:43 AM
G.Bone G.Bone is offline
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The Agroblian Nation is a peculiar nation, given the huge amount of heritage and culture that it sprouted out from. Following is some facts to give you a hint of what it looks from a 'human' perspective

I. Government->
The Agroblian Nation is split into three levels:
1) County
2) District (aka "Regional")
3) State

There are only a handful of actual cities within the Agroblian Nation due to the immense size of the Midland Mire, thus more dependence and governance stems from towns, which operate on a Town Meeting model. Voting restrictions are only placed at age 16 and those of "foreigners" who have not registered as an Agroblian.

Each Meeting (or "Althing") elects a Mayor, Treasurer, Liason [to the Guilds], Herald, and Sargeant [in charge of state reserves]

A representative is chosen at random by these 4 people from the Town Population to meet at County Hall. If chosen as a reprsentative, that person can only serve three four year terms. If that person has a job, s/he is compensated with a livable income from the Government.

This is replicated on the County and District Level.

On the State level, there are actual elections held within the district. The only restriction of a candidate from the State is age {30 years) and of Agroblian citizenship

Parliment is a bicameral institution:
1) Assembly; [posts based on amt. of pop. within a state]
2) Althing; [2 posts regulated to each state]

The Prime Minister is usually from whatever party wins the election, and must appoint his ministers from all present parties whom were elected.

Following are the listing of Ministries:
Ministry of Defense
Ministry of Treasury
Ministry of Commerce [see Guild of Merchants]
Minister of Guilds [appt. minister from the Guild Council]
Ministry of Health
Ministry of Transportation

There are approximately 8 states within the Agroblian Nation, 16 Districts, and 32 counties.

-> Further information on "Guilds" can be seen here: click
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Old December 7th, 2004, 07:34 PM
sunsurf sunsurf is offline
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Astrology, numerology, palmistry and other occult things have been taken seriously for centuries, but they are never taken into consideration when leaders are deciding who the king should be, who the prince should marry, or what treaties and trade agreements are made. Astrologers claim that cities and nations are under the influence of the stars just like people, but that is never taken into account.

Of course, the astrologers can cheat and say whatever the leaders bribe or threaten them to say, but there isn't anything about "Ludovisc was chosen king when the astrologers determined his horoscope was most compatible with the nation's destiny" or anything like that.

Astrology might be only one of several factors.

Of course I'm not suggesting a timeline where astrology, et al. really work, but what would have to be different for the succession of kings, etc. to be decided more by things like astrology?
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  #18  
Old December 7th, 2004, 07:44 PM
Diamond Diamond is offline
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In Rafi's 'Light in the East' TL, he had a semi-socialist, semi-mystic system based on various Platonic ideals. If I'm remembering right, the upper echelon - the leaders - lived in fairly spartan poverty, but they had absolute control over every facet of society. The 'great unwashed' were severely limited in most ways - they couldn't travel, hold office, etc, but their creature comforts were provided for by the state, keeping them fat dumb and happy. There were cool things like Greek 'ninjas' using pythagorean algebra to calculate the correct angle to fire a weapon in an assassination.

It is possible that I'm mixing several things from the TL together; its been a while since I read it. I do remember that it was pretty damn cool tho.
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Old December 9th, 2004, 04:07 AM
Strategos' Risk Strategos' Risk is offline
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Nobody read my last post, eh?
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  #20  
Old December 9th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Nicole Nicole is offline
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Awhile ago, I thought up this ideology for a story I strated but never finsihed. (It wasn't AH.) It may be similair to Communism, I guess, but the idea that people are equal never exists in this. In fact, there is a very strict class system.
At birth, a baby's skills are measured (Or, depedning on technology, genetics could be used) to determine that child's social status. There are three basic levels:
3: Worker
Everything the worker does is predetirmened by the "Central Council" to be most efficient. The worker's emotions are completely ignored. and workers are only tought what they need to do, and to supress emotions.

2: Governmental
The governmentals run the government, and the country. Under orders from the Central Council, they teach the workers their jobs, select children, etc. They are also tought, by fellow governmentals, to supress emotions and ideas, to prevent them from having thoughts that disagree with the Central Council.

1. The Central Councilors
There are only eight members. The Councilors are selected based off test scores among young governmentals-in-training, and then personally trained by the council themselves. The Council controls all aspects of life.
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