AHC: Ottomans Defeated 1915

With no PoDs prior to January 1915, how, by the end of the year, can the Britain successfully execute the Gallipoli Campaign -- capturing Constantinople and/or force the Ottomans out of the war? How does this affect the war? And how is the Middle East affected by its empire being defeated this early in this way? Are the Ottomans more likely to hold together, or are they still carved up a la Versailles?
 
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There is a secure supply line to Russia. Even Corporal Hitler admits that Germany lost . Russians are at Versailles, so the treaty is more vindictive. There is no Russian Revolution.
 
Well terms that bad, we can safely say Germany (still) fought to the end(-ish), correct? So the Allies open a supply line to Russia sometime 1915 (we still need a PoD and fall date); if Germany and Austro-Hungary keep the war up for two more years (or under 20 months less than OTL), does Russia still fall to revolution, or do lack of a Caucus theater and less effective blockade give them enough time to beat the Germans?
 
I think, regardless of when in 1915 the POD occurs & the Straits are opened, Gorlice-Tarnow is going to happen more or less as in IOTL - the best the Russians can hope for is to perhaps stop the German advance a bit further westward if they are getting lots of British/French munitions. More interesting is 1916 - IMHO, Russia & Austria-Hungary were in a race to see which would collapse into revolution first, & perhaps with much more Entente trade the Brusilov Offensive is more successful, triggering Austria-Hungary's collapse before Russia's.
 

Redhand

Banned
A Russian Revolution is by no means assured in this scenario. Tsarist Autocracy is going to need to reform, yeah, but the Bolsheviks rising is by no means likely. A lack of war on multiple fronts will definitely keep the state from collapsing.
 
... but the Bolsheviks rising is by no means likely.

Bit of a nitpick, but even after the Revolution, the Bolshevik rising was far from guaranteed; there's a world of difference between "the Tsarist government was on thin ice" and "the formation of the USSR was already assured". Even with reform, the monarchy needs a deft balancing act to survive long term (and "deft" isn't exactly the first thing I think of with Nicholas II).

More interesting is 1916 - IMHO, Russia & Austria-Hungary were in a race to see which would collapse into revolution first, & perhaps with much more Entente trade the Brusilov Offensive is more successful, triggering Austria-Hungary's collapse before Russia's.

Now this would be interesting -- does Austro-Hungary still cut itself apart along ethnic lines?
 

Riain

Banned
If Gallipoli was captured does that automatically mean Constantinople would be captured swiftly?

What about the Asian side? Surely that will have to be cleared of the enemy before the straits can be used, and such an operation won't take 20 minutes?
 
Dont land on the European (ie Gallipoli) side but use that naval advantage and land on the Asian side and march up the coast

At least then you're not attacking up a narrow hill front...

or is that too simple a plan for Churchill??
 

BlondieBC

Banned
With no PoDs prior to January 1915, how, by the end of the year, can the Britain successfully execute the Gallipoli Campaign -- capturing Constantinople and/or force the Ottomans out of the war? How does this affect the war? And how is the Middle East affected by its empire being defeated this early in this way? Are the Ottomans more likely to hold together, or are they still carved up a la Versailles?

A lot depends on the POD. Exactly the same resources doing a vastly better job looks different than more resources winning more battles. Also, the level of casualties and consumption of equipment and supplies matters. So I will try to split it into categories.

IMO, OTL had little chance of winning. The initial use of what are really surplus capital ships that don't even need to be replaced when lost is a ok gamble. High risk, but the UK was betting what it could easily afford to lose. The landing is an entirely different matter. The Entente (UK) easiest to supply logistical battlefield is Flanders. Instead the Entente attacks where it is very hard for the Entente to supply. The Ottomans have a lot of troops, but difficulty moving them to the borders. The attack also fixes this problem for the Ottomans by attacking a troop concentration. And to cap it off, into good defensive terrain. So what did the plan need. It was in the plan, but taken out. You need to attack the Asian side of the straights with at least as many troops (12-16 division). So you are pulling a full army out of Flanders. You will not be unloading at French ports but on beaches. You have to move the supplies not from England to France but all the way to Turkey. This means you are not using the ships to move other goods. So not only are you missing a full army in the Western Front, but the remaining forces are missing a lot of supplies.

So lets assume you do get both sides of the straights by 12/31/1915. You might knock the Ottomans out of the war. Might change Bulgaria's actions. But likely Turkey fights on, remember IOTL, the Turks alone force the UK into a negotiated peace, in 1923. But you have also broken Russia. You will not have the attack that forces the Germans to move 330 battalions west in August. The Germans can keep advancing until the snows come. The Russians had retreated for 90 straight days, and likely keep retreating. It is actually a great TL if someone wants to write it.

Now we get some interesting issues related to how much of what Falkenhayn said post war was really what he thought in 1915 and how much is CYA. And what the Kaiser does and other leaders. If the Western Front is easily stable, and Russia is retreating at 30-50 miles or so per week, do the Germans stop at some point in a good campaign season (possibly true) or do they push until winter then decide if Russia or France is easier to knock out of the war (more likely true).



Spliting post.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
So, ok, lets take the other extreme. Lots of middle ground, but doing the boundries should help define what can happen. Say we have a lot of CP mistakes that allow the Entente to open straights by mid-1915 without other resources. CP has obvious major issues in 1915, and CP will likely lose but it is not so one sided as first blush.

The Entente have about 15 months of cash before UK runs out of hard money. France is likely out by this point. Russia is not doing well and will not be able to export like prewar. If we assume that we can find the ships to haul extra supplies. If we assume the extra supplies exist or can be produced, the Entente likely wins by fall of 1916 but is totally broke. Entente economies are collapsing as CP armies are being vanquished. Chaos reigns.

But I don't believe this is the correct analysis. The farms and armament factories of the word are running wide open in 1916. No major spare capacity. No spare capacity in ships. Or in the railstock Russia needs so badly. Or spare horses or mules. So this means the supplies sent to Russia have to come from somewhere. Remember, if we don't change the supply pattern, we are minimizing the effects of the POD. So the UK sends food to Russian that IOTL is eaten in France and England. Interesting political effects. We see lots of arms and ammo used IOTL on Western Front used in the east. We then get into an interesting issue related to is the Russian army more efficient using these supplies ITTL than the French/UK forces were IOTL. I can't easily answer this one for you. I think the Entente win in this scenario. Faster than OTL, but they may be worse off post war. Not so sure it last long enough for USA to get in the war, and we have lots of issues with butterflies.
 
Still not sure I agree that opening the straights means less resources on the Western Front. For one, I'm sure Russia would be able to use credit to purchase resources, so it's not like Britain or France are likely to go (much) further into debt to help them; and I'm sure the greater demand will find the supply for somewhere other than the western trenches.
 
Okay, if it happens early enough, it probably butterflies Bulgaria's entry, which takes some pressure off Serbia, plus allows the Russians to be supplied more easily, which at the very least prolongs their struggle.
 
Okay, if it happens early enough, it probably butterflies Bulgaria's entry, which takes some pressure off Serbia, plus allows the Russians to be supplied more easily, which at the very least prolongs their struggle.

Since we're working with earlier PoD (likely May at the very latest), we can safely say the campaign in going better than OTL by August, meaning the Bulgarian Summer is most likely butterflied as well.
 
So does Bulgaria jump in then? Maybe if the Entente offered them some ex-Ottoman territory they'd go with the Entente, or at least maintain a favourable neutrality.
 
Could the original naval-only campaign work to knock the Ottomans out?

Not without some changes..

On the one hand the Ottomans were expecting the Entente to come steaming round the Horn any time and were getting ready to evacuate

On the other hand we had made up on the fly minesweepers with civilian crews who wanted to be anywhere but in the minefields. We also have a Navy that planned to take casualties and did'nt care (because the were old battleships) that suddenly became risk-averse

....
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Not without some changes..

On the one hand the Ottomans were expecting the Entente to come steaming round the Horn any time and were getting ready to evacuate

On the other hand we had made up on the fly minesweepers with civilian crews who wanted to be anywhere but in the minefields. We also have a Navy that planned to take casualties and did'nt care (because the were old battleships) that suddenly became risk-averse

....

Well, yes it would take changes. But could it have worked?

OTOH, if the plan was Gallipoli from the start and had no Dardanelles warning (meaning it's SUDDENLY ANZACS instead of letting the Ottomans build up)... might that have worked instead?
 
Another thought, grab the European section of the Ottoman Empire and sell it to Bulgaria piecemeal. this gives you at least a bit of extra cash, plus hopefully keeps them friendly.
 
I like the idea of the Entente getting favorable relations w Bulgaria (either active support or neutrality) through offers of Ottoman land looking more likely. If Bulgaria joins the Allies, does Romania jump in sooner? Seems you could end up w an Austro-Hungarian dog pile by the end of 1915; that, plus Russia getting supplies via the Crimean, and 1916 looks very bleak for the Central Powers...
 
Yep, although I imagine Bulgaria would take overall a small active role, maybe a small expeditionary force, but the main contribution being munitions, paid for either with land, or with cash, whichever suits.
 
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