WI: rice and rubber became cultivated in the Mediterrranean and Europe starting from Roman times?

[HyperMuscularDemon]

So, according to Wikipedia, rice farming reached quite a long way, to the point of reaching Persia, (apparently in the region of Parthia) in the fourth century BC,and maybe even Anatolia in the early centuries AD.

There is also a species of Dandelion known as the Kazakh Dandelion which is known to produce rubber, to the point that countries have historically cultivated the plant for rubber production (mostly in WW2), and has quite a few countries looking into it as a alternative source of rubber, although yields are kind of small for now.

My question is this: what points of diverge would have to happen in order for a Roman trader on their way to China (or at least on their way to the Tocharian region) to pick up rice seeds and the seeds of the Kazakh Dandelion and bring them back to, say, Athens to start growing around, say 150 AD? What effects would it have on Europe and Eurasia in general if rice and rubber began to be cultivated in the Roman Empire from 150 Ad onwards?

(This thread was partially inspired by threads asking about earlier rubber)

 

[Nivek]

Rice was never popular as wheat and barkley already did the work with same or less water.

And for rubber is supply and demand, would be demand enough for such inferior rubber?

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

Rice was never popular as wheat and barkley already did the work with same or less water.

And for rubber is supply and demand, would be demand enough for such inferior rubber?

I mean, you could get rice as a popular crop for Roman people to eat, and Roman alchemists and experimenters could discover that rubber is very useful. In particular, I can see the Romans learning to use rubber for transportation and clothing.

 

[Elfwine]

In particular, I can see the Romans learning to use rubber for transportation and clothing.

What, in this time period, do you see rubber as doing that other materials would not do better?

 

[Pauh the federalist]

I mean, you could get rice as a popular crop for Roman people to eat, and Roman alchemists and experimenters could discover that rubber is very useful. In particular, I can see the Romans learning to use rubber for transportation and clothing.

Yeah, also if as OP says and rice made it as far as Persia or Anatolia, even if the romans had to instead go as far as India, trade between the red sea via roman Egypt, or perhaps more easily the Persian gulf via roman Mesopotamia trade was not as big a obstacle as many might imagen as we have texts showing of Roman understanding of northwest Indian ocean trade lanes or as they called it, the Erythraean Sea. While a trip to China is admittedly difficult, trade with India during the roman golden age (Pax Romana 27BC-180AD) when they had the most surplus wealth and when the Periplus on the Erythraean sea was written suggests that not only is it theasable within OP's suggested time frame of 150AD onward but may have already been happening to a larger extent in relation to other periods which may make Pax Romana the ideal time to introduce rice into roman farming. As far as location for rice farming i don't know how suited Mesopotamia and Egypt are but they have been traditional sites of heavy agriculture made suitable by their extensive rivers and in the case of the Egypt, the predictable flooding pattern of these rivers making it more easy for farmers to plan their growing and harvesting seasons. Once again while i dont know the viability of these sites their proximity to Indian ocean trade lanes makes them seem at least logistically to be the easiest locations to first introduce these crops into the roman world before wider dissemination.

Erythraean Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pax Romana - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As far as European locations, OP mentions Athens which although i could see a demand for the product in Greece, the region is in the right climate but has poor quality land for heavy farming due to the region being relatively mountunus and with few major rivers (as a result Greece typically traded for food with Egypt and what agriculture they did have was typically dedicated to cash crops like olives). The mountans are also troublesome for high yeilds in anatolia but like greece have a number of locations in the right cliamate (the strip of land ranging from macadomia to northern turky look viable like southern greece but once again would be limited to small yeild farming due to poor turain and lack of good rivers) Further north in this case though they are somewhat advantaged by the presenece of the danube river deeper into the balkens which also are at the point where the regions mountans start to level off but have the inverse issue where there are limited regions with a cliamate that can support a rice growing season. If i had to wager while the western Mediterranean faces some of the same issues as the east rice might take off better as it has a larger continus almost unbroken climate belt that is suitable for rice growth

Cross referencing the above rice climate map we see strong rice output in northern Egypt around the Nile delta and smaller areas around southern and eastern spain with a small but notacable area (its a deeper green but like the nile delta you have to almost squint or alternatively click and zoom in due to its small size becuse of map scaleing) in northern italy around the Po river vally

This region has a nexus of most of the things that where absent from prior locations with a quality river as a foundation for agriculture along with the right climate and minimal mountains and for our purposes also the closest location to the core roman home market (and thus closer to the nobility that in later eras beyond Pax Romana still had abundant disposable income exotic foods (for those who think its competitiveness with wheat is a road block)). So if it did take off in Europe i would put the po valley near the top of the list.

Po Valley - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[pompejus]

First of all, I don't think rubber will be that useful bfore the invention of vulcanisation. Basicly, if you want to use rubber the way we use rubber, it has to be vulcanised. Without it, rubber has some uses, but not that much. Not enough to make that much of a difference and make an impact in Rome. So I don't think the dandelion would be that impactful.

Rice. I could see rice coming to the Roman Empire, but as I understand it the cultivation of rice is very labour intensve. So what are the advantages of rice over any other foodsource the Romans already have? It must have some if you want to (partialy) replace wheat and other sources of food that are already used.

 

[Lalli]

On Mediterranean region had plenty of their own products even as grain so I don't know would rice bring anything beside wheat and other grains unless some more exotic food for nobility and imperial family.

And what usage rubber would has be for Romans?

 

[Evil Crusader]

Agree with the above points on how they're less impactful than hoped.
I also think that given the eventual devastations, Rice farming would become a lost art outside perhaps of the Po Valley.

 

[Clandango]

possibly you would have pools of water to grow it in, but it may not exactly be fresh water. I think up until even the time of Mussolini there were marshlands around Rome that were being drained due to risk of malaria from mosquitos. Rice would need to be some sort of luxury good, otherwise more practical or luxurious goods would be chosen. Rice can last a fair while if prepared right, but down in the Mediterranean you might not have the same issues with feather like further north. Or you might not have as much wood for boiling water on a regular basis.

 

[Nivek]

possibly you would have pools of water to grow it in, but it may not exactly be fresh water. I think up until even the time of Mussolini there were marshlands around Rome that were being drained due to risk of malaria from mosquitos. Rice would need to be some sort of luxury good, otherwise more practical or luxurious goods would be chosen. Rice can last a fair while if prepared right, but down in the Mediterranean you might not have the same issues with feather like further north. Or you might not have as much wood for boiling water on a regular basis.

This, rice is not needed when wheat and Barkley do the work and easier,even Italy is scaling down rice production otl

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

What, in this time period, do you see rubber as doing that other materials would not do better?

Well, rubber will not exactly take off at first, but I can see Roman alchemists experimenting with rubber and learning that rubber mixed with sulfur can be useful. Remember, there actually was quite a prominent Greco Roman alchemist movement, and sulfur can be found in a few Aegean islands.

 

[Nivek]

Well, rubber will not exactly take off at first, but I can see Roman alchemists experimenting with rubber and learning that rubber mixed with sulfur can be useful. Remember, there actually was quite a prominent Greco Roman alchemist movement, and sulfur can be found in a few Aegean islands.

Still you need an use for it if not would be just a novelty item some rich and senatorial class fund for amusement

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

Yeah, also if as OP says and rice made it as far as Persia or Anatolia, even if the romans had to instead go as far as India, trade between the red sea via roman Egypt, or perhaps more easily the Persian gulf via roman Mesopotamia trade was not as big a obstacle as many might imagen as we have texts showing of Roman understanding of northwest Indian ocean trade lanes or as they called it, the Erythraean Sea. While a trip to China is admittedly difficult, trade with India during the roman golden age (Pax Romana 27BC-180AD) when they had the most surplus wealth and when the Periplus on the Erythraean sea was written suggests that not only is it theasable within OP's suggested time frame of 150AD onward but may have already been happening to a larger extent in relation to other periods which may make Pax Romana the ideal time to introduce rice into roman farming. As far as location for rice farming i don't know how suited Mesopotamia and Egypt are but they have been traditional sites of heavy agriculture made suitable by their extensive rivers and in the case of the Egypt, the predictable flooding pattern of these rivers making it more easy for farmers to plan their growing and harvesting seasons. Once again while i dont know the viability of these sites their proximity to Indian ocean trade lanes makes them seem at least logistically to be the easiest locations to first introduce these crops into the roman world before wider dissemination.

Erythraean Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pax Romana - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As far as European locations, OP mentions Athens which although i could see a demand for the product in Greece, the region is in the right climate but has poor quality land for heavy farming due to the region being relatively mountunus and with few major rivers (as a result Greece typically traded for food with Egypt and what agriculture they did have was typically dedicated to cash crops like olives). The mountans are also troublesome for high yeilds in anatolia but like greece have a number of locations in the right cliamate (the strip of land ranging from macadomia to northern turky look viable like southern greece but once again would be limited to small yeild farming due to poor turain and lack of good rivers) Further north in this case though they are somewhat advantaged by the presenece of the danube river deeper into the balkens which also are at the point where the regions mountans start to level off but have the inverse issue where there are limited regions with a cliamate that can support a rice growing season. If i had to wager while the western Mediterranean faces some of the same issues as the east rice might take off better as it has a larger continus almost unbroken climate belt that is suitable for rice growth

Cross referencing the above rice climate map we see strong rice output in northern Egypt around the Nile delta and smaller areas around southern and eastern spain with a small but notacable area (its a deeper green but like the nile delta you have to almost squint or alternatively click and zoom in due to its small size becuse of map scaleing) in northern italy around the Po river vally

This region has a nexus of most of the things that where absent from prior locations with a quality river as a foundation for agriculture along with the right climate and minimal mountains and for our purposes also the closest location to the core roman home market (and thus closer to the nobility that in later eras beyond Pax Romana still had abundant disposable income exotic foods (for those who think its competitiveness with wheat is a road block)). So if it did take off in Europe i would put the po valley near the top of the list.

Po Valley - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Good point. My scenario for the farming of rice is that rice farming sticks around enough as a sustainable alternative, mostly in Greece, the Balkans, the Po river valley, and Spain. That way, rice farming can spread to other parts of Europe later. Given how suitable the Po river valley is for rice farming, it is possible Italy suffers far less than OTL in Late Antiquity and even manages to remain somewhat prosperous.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

First of all, I don't think rubber will be that useful bfore the invention of vulcanisation. Basicly, if you want to use rubber the way we use rubber, it has to be vulcanised. Without it, rubber has some uses, but not that much. Not enough to make that much of a difference and make an impact in Rome. So I don't think the dandelion would be that impactful.

Rice. I could see rice coming to the Roman Empire, but as I understand it the cultivation of rice is very labour intensve. So what are the advantages of rice over any other foodsource the Romans already have? It must have some if you want to (partialy) replace wheat and other sources of food that are already used.

According to Wikipedia, sulfur was used for the purpose of fumigation, medicine, and bleaching cloth in Ancient Greece, and it could be found on the Island of Melos. Therefore, there is a potential chance that a Roman alchemist combines rubber from the Kazakh Dandelion with sulfur to create the vulcanization of rubber and that this process will spread.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

On Mediterranean region had plenty of their own products even as grain so I don't know would rice bring anything beside wheat and other grains unless some more exotic food for nobility and imperial family.

And what usage rubber would has be for Romans?

Mesoamericans used rubber for a long time, incorporating rubber into everyday products, like Mesoamerican game balls and baskets. Therefore, vulcanized rubber could have a use in Roman life, especially for clothing.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

possibly you would have pools of water to grow it in, but it may not exactly be fresh water. I think up until even the time of Mussolini there were marshlands around Rome that were being drained due to risk of malaria from mosquitos. Rice would need to be some sort of luxury good, otherwise more practical or luxurious goods would be chosen. Rice can last a fair while if prepared right, but down in the Mediterranean you might not have the same issues with feather like further north. Or you might not have as much wood for boiling water on a regular basis.

Good point. Perhaps agroforestry is invented much earlier in North Europe?

 

[Elfwine]

Well, rubber will not exactly take off at first, but I can see Roman alchemists experimenting with rubber and learning that rubber mixed with sulfur can be useful. Remember, there actually was quite a prominent Greco Roman alchemist movement, and sulfur can be found in a few Aegean islands.

Still you need an use for it if not would be just a novelty item some rich and senatorial class fund for amusement

What Nivek said, pretty much. If it's just some random thing that people grow purely because the rich have the money to waste, it's rather unlikely that they're going to make extensive use of it - especially in any fashion that would lead to experiments leading to vulcanization.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

What Nivek said, pretty much. If it's just some random thing that people grow purely because the rich have the money to waste, it's rather unlikely that they're going to make extensive use of it - especially in any fashion that would lead to experiments leading to vulcanization.

According to another AH.com user, (in an earlier thread) they said that the Kazakh Dandelion apparently has deep roots that break soil barriers. Maybe a Roman estate owner sees this and decides to take advantage of it?

 

[DrakeRlugia]

IIRC, the Romans were aware of rice, but it was mostly a luxury import. They imported Oryza Sativa from India, and there's some proof that it was also imported from lower Syria and even Bactria. Strabo talks about rice in one of his books, as does Horace. Even in the areas where rice had spread (such as Babylonia, moving further west) the main issue was the amount of water / irrigation required for rice to be widely cultivated. In some of these areas, it just wasn't possible until after the classical period had past.

I think that's the main issue in turning rice into a staple for Rome in that grain is always going to triumph as it can be more easily grown / imported. Even if you can spread rice further into Europe during the Roman period, it would likely be a niche product. Perhaps some eccentric nobleman decides to use his latifundium to grow rice, but as Elfwine has mentioned above, that's not exactly going to help make the product more extensive and see more wide-spread use. It'd be limited to the super wealthy, perhaps at most some niche recipes for the Roman elite incorporate rice.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

IIRC, the Romans were aware of rice, but it was mostly a luxury import. They imported Oryza Sativa from India, and there's some proof that it was also imported from lower Syria and even Bactria. Strabo talks about rice in one of his books, as does Horace. Even in the areas where rice had spread (such as Babylonia, moving further west) the main issue was the amount of water / irrigation required for rice to be widely cultivated. In some of these areas, it just wasn't possible until after the classical period had past.

I think that's the main issue in turning rice into a staple for Rome in that grain is always going to triumph as it can be more easily grown / imported. Even if you can spread rice further into Europe during the Roman period, it would likely be a niche product. Perhaps some eccentric nobleman decides to use his latifundium to grow rice, but as Elfwine has mentioned above, that's not exactly going to help make the product more extensive and see more wide-spread use. It'd be limited to the super wealthy, perhaps at most some niche recipes for the Roman elite incorporate rice.

Yes, but Roman elites could decide to promote it and let rice farming spread more, especially if someone notices that rice could potentially lessen the reliance on Egyptian grain.