WI: rice and rubber became cultivated in the Mediterrranean and Europe starting from Roman times?

Yes, but Roman elites could decide to promote it and let rice farming spread more, especially if someone notices that rice could potentially lessen the reliance on Egyptian grain.
You can turn wheat and barley into bread. Not sure what you can do with rice besides making porridge. Or what the calories are like when you compare the two. Perhaps you should look into the terrain and agriculture of southern and eastern Anatolia.
 
You can turn wheat and barley into bread. Not sure what you can do with rice besides making porridge. Or what the calories are like when you compare the two. Perhaps you should look into the terrain and agriculture of southern and eastern Anatolia.
Rice worked as a cheap calories because that, in East Asia have the weather and labour to put it for it, in Europe when Wheat is king and Barkley is the good enough, Rice would be competing with those...and failing till more modern agriculture techniques come into the play
 
Rice cultivation in Spain got off the ground thanks to the Moors, but it depended on the introduction of extensive irrigation and drainage systems (one historian called that the "Syrianization" of Spain). Similarly in Sicily, before it made the jump to mainland Italy. Could you have the Romans take that up? And would their irrigation practices survive the barbarian conquests? Would the Visigoths in Spain maintain them? Or the Normans in Italy (massacring a few butterflies here)?

There's also a downside to rice cultivation--malaria. Already in the 16th century, Spanish laws began restricting rice cultivation because of the mosquitos that bred in rice fields.
 
No one has mentioned the obvious use of rubber that has been vulcanised, water proof clothing for the military,
Crop specialisation was common in some areas of the empire.
Rice hmmmmmm niche and malaria was already a problem so maybe import sugarcane from India or citrus would work better (it would cut out that poisonous Lead must stuff)
 
No one has mentioned the obvious use of rubber that has been vulcanised, water proof clothing for the military,
Crop specialisation was common in some areas of the empire.
Rice hmmmmmm niche and malaria was already a problem so maybe import sugarcane from India or citrus would work better (it would cut out that poisonous Lead must stuff)
The process to vulcanization would take a while even if they're the chicken to the plants egg.
 
You can turn wheat and barley into bread. Not sure what you can do with rice besides making porridge. Or what the calories are like when you compare the two. Perhaps you should look into the terrain and agriculture of southern and eastern Anatolia.
Yes, but rice farming could really help in the late stage of the Roman Empire, when landowners began to consolidate land.
 
You can turn wheat and barley into bread. Not sure what you can do with rice besides making porridge. Or what the calories are like when you compare the two. Perhaps you should look into the terrain and agriculture of southern and eastern Anatolia.
You can make rice wine and according to the history section on the wiki "As a result of Alexander the Great's expedition to India, the Roman Empire had begun importing rice wine by the first century BCE.[6]" (the overall history section for the rice wine wiki is fairly short, in particular for europe but what is present is sourced from "The Cambridge World History of Food" so the little that's there is from a reputable source) This passage indicates that europians at least had knowledge rice wines existance enough for importing to occur so local roman rice production and subsequent fermentation could allow for the production of roman sourced rice wine instead of needing to religh on imported product. The process described in the makeing of rice wine is actually fairly similer to beer which the romens where familer with but it was unpopuler with the roman nobility as they associated it with the barbarians and as a result wine which was associated with the roman Mediterranean core were more populer because the mediterranean is where grapes grew and the regions where barbarians lived where often not conducive for wine pruduction and also less frequently imported as disposablewealth in germania was smaller, thus the development of the stigma for beer vs wine . So rice wine might actually be able to bridge the gap for this type of beverage for the roman nobility as it would not be regularly consumed barbarians or even comoners for that matter if it remains a luxury good thus removing any existing roman stigma that would normaly get in the way of adoption by the nobals
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_wine#:~:text=Rice wine is made by,notable types of rice wine.
 
Here's the problem--the natural rubber content in the Kazakh dandelion is about 8-10x lower than modern rubber trees. I am not certain how much less it is than Castilla elastica, the rubber source used in Mesoamerica, but it probably is quite a bit less since after all, nobody used these sources in ancient times despite growing in areas directly on the Silk Road with ancient urban civilisations. Apparently the process involves refrigerating the roots and then grinding them, which using modern machinery gets about 90% of the rubber from the root. It was less in World War II, and no doubt pre-industrial civilisation would achieve far less plus would have the added problem of only being able to harvest the plant on certain cold days and using priceless ice to refrigerate it (or long trips into the high mountains).

So assuming it's even possible, Old World rubber and its products would remain a novelty item strictly for the elite probably across the entire Silk Road, even if they did find a way to vulcanise it (which might not be too hard--in Mesoamerica the rubber was mixed with the latex of another plant of genus Ipomaea which happened to have a lot of sulfur compounds in it, so such a technique might be doable).
 
You can make rice wine and according to the history section on the wiki "As a result of Alexander the Great's expedition to India, the Roman Empire had begun importing rice wine by the first century BCE.[6]" (the overall history section for the rice wine wiki is fairly short, in particular for europe but what is present is sourced from "The Cambridge World History of Food" so the little that's there is from a reputable source) This passage indicates that europians at least had knowledge rice wines existance enough for importing to occur so local roman rice production and subsequent fermentation could allow for the production of roman sourced rice wine instead of needing to religh on imported product. The process described in the makeing of rice wine is actually fairly similer to beer which the romens where familer with but it was unpopuler with the roman nobility as they associated it with the barbarians and as a result wine which was associated with the roman Mediterranean core were more populer because the mediterranean is where grapes grew and the regions where barbarians lived where often not conducive for wine pruduction and also less frequently imported as disposablewealth in germania was smaller, thus the development of the stigma for beer vs wine . So rice wine might actually be able to bridge the gap for this type of beverage for the roman nobility as it would not be regularly consumed barbarians or even comoners for that matter if it remains a luxury good thus removing any existing roman stigma that would normaly get in the way of adoption by the nobals
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_wine#:~:text=Rice wine is made by,notable types of rice wine.
And still the thing,rice for alcohol means less as a food when wheat and Barkley rules
 
Rice is usually described as having a higher yield than wheat, whether rice in the Mediterranean at this point in time would have a higher yield is the question. Of course it also demand a greater investments in building up paddies. As for eating it, I don’t really see a major problem, the Romans may have loved their bread, but it didn’t keep the Italians to shift to past, and the use of rice in soups is widespread in the region today.

But form a speculative history POV the important factor will be if rice will give a greater yield than wheat, and what kind of physical, social and institutional infrastructure rice demands. As for uses people find a way to use it, Europeans tended to use barley in similar manner to how the Asians used rice, when they didn’t make it into beer and nothing stopping you from making rice into flour.
 
No one has mentioned the obvious use of rubber that has been vulcanised, water proof clothing for the military,
Crop specialisation was common in some areas of the empire.
Rice hmmmmmm niche and malaria was already a problem so maybe import sugarcane from India or citrus would work better (it would cut out that poisonous Lead must stuff)
This is exactly what I am talking about. Rubber would have so many benefits to the Roman Empire and clothing is one of those benefits.
(Also, sorry if my comment appears two times).
 
Here's the problem--the natural rubber content in the Kazakh dandelion is about 8-10x lower than modern rubber trees. I am not certain how much less it is than Castilla elastica, the rubber source used in Mesoamerica, but it probably is quite a bit less since after all, nobody used these sources in ancient times despite growing in areas directly on the Silk Road with ancient urban civilisations. Apparently the process involves refrigerating the roots and then grinding them, which using modern machinery gets about 90% of the rubber from the root. It was less in World War II, and no doubt pre-industrial civilisation would achieve far less plus would have the added problem of only being able to harvest the plant on certain cold days and using priceless ice to refrigerate it (or long trips into the high mountains).

So assuming it's even possible, Old World rubber and its products would remain a novelty item strictly for the elite probably across the entire Silk Road, even if they did find a way to vulcanise it (which might not be too hard--in Mesoamerica the rubber was mixed with the latex of another plant of genus Ipomaea which happened to have a lot of sulfur compounds in it, so such a technique might be doable).
I think pretty obviously it is sadly hard to do anything with the known OTL properties of even the Kazakh dandelion. (And silly me, here I was believing that just about any kind of dandelion would work as well as any other...)

This is not ASB forum so we can't just postulate another natural variety more suitable for some reason to yield a decent amount of decent latex without ice, refrigeration, etc.

It would not be ASB however if there were a plausible path to ATL cultivation of this dandelion, or some relative not very distinguished OTL that happens to have a plausible path, over thousands of years of cultivation, to become more useful in the manner the vast majority of modern crops are radically different in obvious ways from their wild ancestors. If someone way back in the early Neolithic, in Central Asia or anywhere else--say this happens in what would become Gaul, completely ATL but possibly not ASB--cultivated this hypothetical Gaulish Latex-Dandelion probably for some other reason than developing latex, but found themselves processing latex as an undesired waste product perhaps as a side effect of a desirable feature--say they eat the dandelion greens, and the root if processed to get the latex out is also of dietary worth and much more so in the cultivar variant, but somehow the selection for better greens and roots paradoxically also both increases latex production, in healthy well tended cultivar plants anyway, and largely sequesters it, say in the central part of the taproot, while the periphery is where the food value is--or vice versa, a latex-infused sheath over a good food core perhaps. Anyway, after a few thousand years of flensing the gummy outer sheath off the edible core and then just tossing the sheath aside, people fool around with it and discover some random eclectic uses for it and broaden their repertoire; they learn to efficiently separate the latex from its tough outer root matrix, and treat it various ways, one way makes it very sticky in treated parts while being a firm grip on untreated parts of a rod or block, other ways make it closer to what we moderns consider proper rubber. The bouncy aspects can indeed have some uses perhaps in cart wheel axle suspensions.

Aside from where it develops, Gaul or Central Asia or Iberia or North Africa perhaps, I think if we can justify a non-ASB progression like this in the dandelion's heartland as a cultivar (quite possibly coterminous with the natural habitat range, in the Interglacial, of the wild ancestor strain) we also ought to move the "POD" as far as ATL Hellenistic people messing around across the Mediterranean with it, or rather starting to, back some centuries. Say 3, and it is more like 150 BCE rather than CE--so basically in the period when the Roman Republic was fast approaching the crises that reworked it into the Empire that the plant starts being of some interest to the Hellenistic upper classes, perhaps also involving the possible uses as food for the lower classes, a la the rationale behind the RN sending the Bounty under Captain Bligh to acquire breadfruit cuttings and seeds from Tahiti to import to the West Indies as food for slaves. So now we have both patricians and the lowliest commoners fooling around with goofy mealroot sheaths and the arts already known in its heartland to get some uses out of them largely spread with the plant itself. Then, over the next three hundred years or so, first the dandelion is spread around eclectically, being introduced here and there mainly for its food value, where it has very hit or miss success. There are plenty of places where the agriculture is getting marginal due to a couple thousand years of intensive cultivation in the Med, and in some of those places the weed-variety does relatively a lot better than more normal crops, and so there is some tendency for marginal people to grow it on the side, especially if it doesn't really require a lot of care just to grow--to make it really a good food crop, you have to lavish a lot more care on it, but if you just give it some rather light attention in a spot marginal to useless for normal crops, it grows fairly well if not in the most delectible form, and it provides nourishment supplement for remarkably low intensity or time span of labor attention given it. It does better if well weeded of course but it can tolerate quite a few weeds intruding, tending to out-weed them. It proves to be a useful companion plant to something or other; maybe helps improve the soil in ways such as suggested upthread on more limited forms of the lines I am suggesting.

And then, with the stuff quasi-ubiquitous (that is, you travel around among many versions of essentially the same climate zones, and in some you find the dandelion is either running wild or under cultivation, and in others it didn't take, for reasons future agronomists will find themselves turning to purely social history as well to fully explain) then some alchemist-tinkerers, or perhaps artisans goofing around with the wacky tacky stuff, stumble upon forms approximating vulcanization and other possible treatments, and the utilities become much improved--say they can develop a form one can make fairly strong Bungee cord type arrangements, something that with enough short lengths of it in parallel one might greatly damp out the ride of carts and chariots for instance. (No one uses chariots in combat any more, but they are ceremonial). By now it is pretty late into the Roman empire, right in one of the centuries that seemed a golden age in retrospect, so useful ideas are extra likely to spread versus earlier or later times.

This could shift the basis of cultivating the dandelion away from its food value toward its latex value--but perhaps breeding the plant for better and more latex at this point again paradoxically leaves it actually almost as good a food plant, so actually everyone grows it for both. Meanwhile the latex types are clading out into distinct varieties and some of them have notably different latex properties than others.
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I actually have remarkably little interest in the rice subject, it seems pretty well done by others.

The rubber is very much a long shot, but I don't think it is proven to be ASB, though I do think starting the clock with an introduction in 150 CE instead of three or more centuries before is a way of moving the eventual impacts well out of the Roman Era into the Middle Ages sometime.

Also it does matter where the home zone of the ATL favored variety was. After suggesting Gaul pretty much at random, I thought maybe North Africa might be a more sensible place, say as a weed on the borderland between semi-arid but cultivatable land and the dryer edge of the desert proper. So if it comes from Gaul it is more and more a European thing, with varieties gradually adapting somewhat to more continental climates and shifting eastward essentially with Latin Christendom, which develops it ubiquitiously in Europe through the Middle Ages. While if it is Tunisian or Moroccan, I suppose after North Africa goes Islamic, it becomes very much an Arab/Muslim sphere sort of thing not so well known beyond the Mediterranean itself.

Anyway to make it a Roman Imperial age thing I think we need to introduce it a lot earlier, and withal with some thousands of years of ATL cultivation behind it before then.
 
And still the thing,rice for alcohol means less as a food when wheat and Barkley rules
Which wasn't a problem in northern China or parts of Japan where wheat and millet were more common crops than rice. In medieval Japan, most peasants would rarely eat the rice they farmed since it was used for tribute, and said tribute was often sold to sake producers.
It would not be ASB however if there were a plausible path to ATL cultivation of this dandelion, or some relative not very distinguished OTL that happens to have a plausible path, over thousands of years of cultivation, to become more useful in the manner the vast majority of modern crops are radically different in obvious ways from their wild ancestors. If someone way back in the early Neolithic, in Central Asia or anywhere else--say this happens in what would become Gaul, completely ATL but possibly not ASB--cultivated this hypothetical Gaulish Latex-Dandelion probably for some other reason than developing latex, but found themselves processing latex as an undesired waste product perhaps as a side effect of a desirable feature--say they eat the dandelion greens, and the root if processed to get the latex out is also of dietary worth and much more so in the cultivar variant, but somehow the selection for better greens and roots paradoxically also both increases latex production, in healthy well tended cultivar plants anyway, and largely sequesters it, say in the central part of the taproot, while the periphery is where the food value is--or vice versa, a latex-infused sheath over a good food core perhaps. Anyway, after a few thousand years of flensing the gummy outer sheath off the edible core and then just tossing the sheath aside, people fool around with it and discover some random eclectic uses for it and broaden their repertoire; they learn to efficiently separate the latex from its tough outer root matrix, and treat it various ways, one way makes it very sticky in treated parts while being a firm grip on untreated parts of a rod or block, other ways make it closer to what we moderns consider proper rubber. The bouncy aspects can indeed have some uses perhaps in cart wheel axle suspensions.
Processing such a rubber could be a very unpleasant process. One source of rubber rarely used in Mesoamerica (but potentially more used by the precolonial Yaqui and Hohokam far to their north) was the guayule plant of northern Mexico, which the sources note was "communally chewed" to process out the latex. I guess the actual latex was spit into a bucket and worked from there? Producing a decent amount would make your jaw sore, and it probably doesn't taste good, so slaves would be the ones to do it if we imagine such a thing in the Roman world.

I wonder if animals could help the process? The latex is probably toxic, but you could imagine a donkey or a dog or something chomping down on a bundle to get it started, and then the slaves doing the rest.
 
Which wasn't a problem in northern China or parts of Japan where wheat and millet were more common crops than rice. In medieval Japan, most peasants would rarely eat the rice they farmed since it was used for tribute, and said tribute was often sold to sake producers.

Processing such a rubber could be a very unpleasant process. One source of rubber rarely used in Mesoamerica (but potentially more used by the precolonial Yaqui and Hohokam far to their north) was the guayule plant of northern Mexico, which the sources note was "communally chewed" to process out the latex. I guess the actual latex was spit into a bucket and worked from there? Producing a decent amount would make your jaw sore, and it probably doesn't taste good, so slaves would be the ones to do it if we imagine such a thing in the Roman world.

I wonder if animals could help the process? The latex is probably toxic, but you could imagine a donkey or a dog or something chomping down on a bundle to get it started, and then the slaves doing the rest.
I'm not sure you could get a donkey to not swallow it, or to bother chewing it at all if it doesn't eat it.

With that said, maybe some kind of press or mill could be developed?
 
Vine rubber could be avail able from Sudan via Nile

It was a big exporter early 20th century.
 
Here's the problem--the natural rubber content in the Kazakh dandelion is about 8-10x lower than modern rubber trees. I am not certain how much less it is than Castilla elastica, the rubber source used in Mesoamerica, but it probably is quite a bit less since after all, nobody used these sources in ancient times despite growing in areas directly on the Silk Road with ancient urban civilisations. Apparently the process involves refrigerating the roots and then grinding them, which using modern machinery gets about 90% of the rubber from the root. It was less in World War II, and no doubt pre-industrial civilisation would achieve far less plus would have the added problem of only being able to harvest the plant on certain cold days and using priceless ice to refrigerate it (or long trips into the high mountains).

So assuming it's even possible, Old World rubber and its products would remain a novelty item strictly for the elite probably across the entire Silk Road, even if they did find a way to vulcanise it (which might not be too hard--in Mesoamerica the rubber was mixed with the latex of another plant of genus Ipomaea which happened to have a lot of sulfur compounds in it, so such a technique might be doable).
Thing is, over time, with effort, Kazakh Dandelion plants could be modified naturally to bring a greater amount of rubber.
 
Thing is, over time, with effort, Kazakh Dandelion plants could be modified naturally to bring a greater amount of rubber.
The other thing is that no one knows if this is going to be worth the effort and expense in advance. Not to say that means they don't do anything, but it's a factor that will influence what the Romans see this plant as.
 
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I think pretty obviously it is sadly hard to do anything with the known OTL properties of even the Kazakh dandelion. (And silly me, here I was believing that just about any kind of dandelion would work as well as any other...)

This is not ASB forum so we can't just postulate another natural variety more suitable for some reason to yield a decent amount of decent latex without ice, refrigeration, etc.

It would not be ASB however if there were a plausible path to ATL cultivation of this dandelion, or some relative not very distinguished OTL that happens to have a plausible path, over thousands of years of cultivation, to become more useful in the manner the vast majority of modern crops are radically different in obvious ways from their wild ancestors. If someone way back in the early Neolithic, in Central Asia or anywhere else--say this happens in what would become Gaul, completely ATL but possibly not ASB--cultivated this hypothetical Gaulish Latex-Dandelion probably for some other reason than developing latex, but found themselves processing latex as an undesired waste product perhaps as a side effect of a desirable feature--say they eat the dandelion greens, and the root if processed to get the latex out is also of dietary worth and much more so in the cultivar variant, but somehow the selection for better greens and roots paradoxically also both increases latex production, in healthy well tended cultivar plants anyway, and largely sequesters it, say in the central part of the taproot, while the periphery is where the food value is--or vice versa, a latex-infused sheath over a good food core perhaps. Anyway, after a few thousand years of flensing the gummy outer sheath off the edible core and then just tossing the sheath aside, people fool around with it and discover some random eclectic uses for it and broaden their repertoire; they learn to efficiently separate the latex from its tough outer root matrix, and treat it various ways, one way makes it very sticky in treated parts while being a firm grip on untreated parts of a rod or block, other ways make it closer to what we moderns consider proper rubber. The bouncy aspects can indeed have some uses perhaps in cart wheel axle suspensions.

Aside from where it develops, Gaul or Central Asia or Iberia or North Africa perhaps, I think if we can justify a non-ASB progression like this in the dandelion's heartland as a cultivar (quite possibly coterminous with the natural habitat range, in the Interglacial, of the wild ancestor strain) we also ought to move the "POD" as far as ATL Hellenistic people messing around across the Mediterranean with it, or rather starting to, back some centuries. Say 3, and it is more like 150 BCE rather than CE--so basically in the period when the Roman Republic was fast approaching the crises that reworked it into the Empire that the plant starts being of some interest to the Hellenistic upper classes, perhaps also involving the possible uses as food for the lower classes, a la the rationale behind the RN sending the Bounty under Captain Bligh to acquire breadfruit cuttings and seeds from Tahiti to import to the West Indies as food for slaves. So now we have both patricians and the lowliest commoners fooling around with goofy mealroot sheaths and the arts already known in its heartland to get some uses out of them largely spread with the plant itself. Then, over the next three hundred years or so, first the dandelion is spread around eclectically, being introduced here and there mainly for its food value, where it has very hit or miss success. There are plenty of places where the agriculture is getting marginal due to a couple thousand years of intensive cultivation in the Med, and in some of those places the weed-variety does relatively a lot better than more normal crops, and so there is some tendency for marginal people to grow it on the side, especially if it doesn't really require a lot of care just to grow--to make it really a good food crop, you have to lavish a lot more care on it, but if you just give it some rather light attention in a spot marginal to useless for normal crops, it grows fairly well if not in the most delectible form, and it provides nourishment supplement for remarkably low intensity or time span of labor attention given it. It does better if well weeded of course but it can tolerate quite a few weeds intruding, tending to out-weed them. It proves to be a useful companion plant to something or other; maybe helps improve the soil in ways such as suggested upthread on more limited forms of the lines I am suggesting.

And then, with the stuff quasi-ubiquitous (that is, you travel around among many versions of essentially the same climate zones, and in some you find the dandelion is either running wild or under cultivation, and in others it didn't take, for reasons future agronomists will find themselves turning to purely social history as well to fully explain) then some alchemist-tinkerers, or perhaps artisans goofing around with the wacky tacky stuff, stumble upon forms approximating vulcanization and other possible treatments, and the utilities become much improved--say they can develop a form one can make fairly strong Bungee cord type arrangements, something that with enough short lengths of it in parallel one might greatly damp out the ride of carts and chariots for instance. (No one uses chariots in combat any more, but they are ceremonial). By now it is pretty late into the Roman empire, right in one of the centuries that seemed a golden age in retrospect, so useful ideas are extra likely to spread versus earlier or later times.

This could shift the basis of cultivating the dandelion away from its food value toward its latex value--but perhaps breeding the plant for better and more latex at this point again paradoxically leaves it actually almost as good a food plant, so actually everyone grows it for both. Meanwhile the latex types are clading out into distinct varieties and some of them have notably different latex properties than others.
-------------
I actually have remarkably little interest in the rice subject, it seems pretty well done by others.

The rubber is very much a long shot, but I don't think it is proven to be ASB, though I do think starting the clock with an introduction in 150 CE instead of three or more centuries before is a way of moving the eventual impacts well out of the Roman Era into the Middle Ages sometime.

Also it does matter where the home zone of the ATL favored variety was. After suggesting Gaul pretty much at random, I thought maybe North Africa might be a more sensible place, say as a weed on the borderland between semi-arid but cultivatable land and the dryer edge of the desert proper. So if it comes from Gaul it is more and more a European thing, with varieties gradually adapting somewhat to more continental climates and shifting eastward essentially with Latin Christendom, which develops it ubiquitiously in Europe through the Middle Ages. While if it is Tunisian or Moroccan, I suppose after North Africa goes Islamic, it becomes very much an Arab/Muslim sphere sort of thing not so well known beyond the Mediterranean itself.

Anyway to make it a Roman Imperial age thing I think we need to introduce it a lot earlier, and withal with some thousands of years of ATL cultivation behind it before then.
This is exactly what I am talking about. By selecting for plants with bigger capabilities for rubber production, the Romans could evolve a strain of Kazakh Dandelion which has a higher amount of rubber when harvested.
 
This is exactly what I am talking about. By selecting for plants with bigger capabilities for rubber production, the Romans could evolve a strain of Kazakh Dandelion which has a higher amount of rubber when harvested.
Chicken and egg,they don't even have rubber to begin with
 
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