Michael VIII was an incredibly ambitious, cunning and diplomatically skilled Emperor with a proven record as a general and warrior.

He made several bad decisions as Emperor that started the trend of the citizens of the Empire hating the Palaiologi that continued all the way to Constantine XI.

These decisions included;
- Blinding John IV Laskaris, thus losing himself the Akritai and being known as a usurper.
- Abandoning the Anatolian lands in favour of Europe, which without the Akritai began to fall rapidly.
- Forcing a union between the Catholics and Orthodox that destroyed the religious and cultural identity of the Empire and left him and his dynasty hated by the citizens until 1453.

In this—the middle point that people often give him ‘grief’ for, because for some reason the union isn’t what they think on, is with hindsight. We know that Europe didn’t need that much attention, he didn’t—he genuinely feared European intervention after he retook Constantinople.

As Emperor, besides the above faults, he was a highly skilled diplomat, who ran circles around his enemies and even, for the first time since Manuel I (an Emperor I consider quite bad) actively influenced the Known World when he started a full-blown civil war (Sicilian Vespers) in Charles of Anjou’s lands that permanently lost him Sicily—all as a punishment and pre-emptive strike against the King of Sicily/Naples for his threats and plans to steal back Constantinople.

His record is full of a lot of questionable decisions you can only understand by putting aside hindsight—and while some, such as the Church Union and blinding of John IV, would be terrible even without it, they’re not on the scale of Andronikos II’s idiocy.

An idiocy that destroyed the state because the man ruled as Emperor for 50 years. 50 years of defence budget cuts, wasting of money, and bad decisions that created several needless enemies and actively crippled the state. Had Andronikos II lived in a time of peace, without enemies on every border, or for a decade, he wouldn’t be worth the bile that’s flung at him.

But he wasn’t a ruler in peacetime, and he lead for 50 years—near-every-day of which he further chipped away at the Empire instead of rebuilding it.

He had some ‘shrewd’ moments such ensuring Thessaloniki’s rights of rule were directly inherited by the Romans, so Latin claims were moot—but this was the outstanding exception, not the rule to any degree.

Michael VIII was cunning, and diplomatically skilled in a way I think was OTL only matched by his descendant Manuel II (who despite ruling a polity on the verge of death bought it another 50 years through sheer will and effort) in diplomatic skill. Had he been directly followed by a military man, like Andronikos III, or by a polyglot-polymath diplomatic master like Manuel II, the Empire would have gotten fully back on it’s feet.

Instead it got the Angeloi personified for 50 years.
——
Addendum; yes I use akin a lot—it’s a neat word, lol.
It would be interesting reading a TL with a much better start for the Palaiologos Dynasty when Michael VIII comes to power. I know you'd be able to make such a TL @Averious 😎😎👍👍
 
Is this post supposed to be threadmarked?
It isn’t, thanks for pointing that out 🤣
I think it would be useful, when you have time, if you could post a map of the post-Bretigny situation and the new border between Serbia/Bosnia and Hungary/Croatia
There’s still a few more events that’ll change the map directly—but soon.
It would be interesting reading a TL with a much better start for the Palaiologos Dynasty when Michael VIII comes to power. I know you'd be able to make such a TL @Averious 😎😎👍👍
I don’t think I’ll be making any more timelines besides this one for a *long* time 🤣

Besides, there wouldn’t be enough different than this TL to warrant it—just another 45-50 years of history tacked onto this one.
 
I don’t think I’ll be making any more timelines besides this one for a *long* time 🤣
No?
😡😡😡😡
kathy-bates-misery.gif
 
You are misunderstanding it, but it's partly my fault for not explaining further.

The implications thus far is that Russia will take a different turn--and there's the thing to note that Russia didn't itself have possessions on the Black Sea until 1700's, by which point the client state I've mentioned will have existed for some time.

To put it more simply; the Romans won't be competing with Russia directly, or directly fighting them for things, because Russia won't have them yet--and may not have gotten them either way with their new trajectory.

To end off--they wouldn't be non-Christian; one of the key stipulations is that their client states be Christian, they're unlike the Ottomans in that regard--as the Ottomans allowed their clients to retain their faiths, the Romans don't, because they're either converting peoples who've never even met a Christian, or propping up a Christian lesser state which they've given control over a much larger swath of land.
Ok, I see. I came away with the implication that the Romans would have soft power and vassals in the Crimea and pontic steppe (this is extremely plausible) but also continue this all the way to the pacific through central asia, because you mentioned the Kamchadals.
 
Ok, I see. I came away with the implication that the Romans would have soft power and vassals in the Crimea and pontic steppe (this is extremely plausible) but also continue this all the way to the pacific through central asia, because you mentioned the Kamchadals.
Ah I see the problem 🤣

They’d be getting to the Kamchadals by ship, as with all their Pacific holdings and vassals—but this is of course speaking about things *way* down the line.
 
Book 2; 1362 to 1363 - Renaissance to War
News of the upheavals on Crete had reached John in early September of 1363; news that filled the Emperor with unease, because he was torn in two directions on it--his duties as Emperor of the Romans, to the people, and the Empire.

What finally urged him one direction had been the arrival of a Venetian letter in early October; the copperheaded Emperor standing up firmly on instinct as he kept reading--on, and on, as his grasp on the letter grew tighter and tighter--until finally he reached the very end, and by then it was scrunched up in his hands.

A moment later, and blood dripped from how deeply John's nails were digging into his palms.

A huff followed, and then the hissing sound of a fire charring through paper as John tossed it into the nearest brazier.

Those blue eyes of his drifted then to his wife, who sat nearby, and had seen the entire display, "I think it's time I summon our son,"


1362

Constantinople had changed, John remarked to himself; years away had given him a new perspective on his capital--allowing him to put together the various pieces more clearly in his mind.

Despite the Death, and the near-century of decay under the Latins, the Queen of Cities' population was on the rise again; enough so that its devolution into a series of villages and akin within the broader area enclosed in the Theodosian Walls was starting to reverse. Buildings were being reinhabited, roads used once more; space taken up by new constructions.

What had been a population of barely 50,000 by the time of the reclamation of the city from the Latins roughly a century ago, to the slow revival of 70,000 that would be cut down to around 40,000 in the Death, was already 'ballooning' past 85,000 or so in 1362.

In this, even as in the west, a massive cyclone would devastate much of Northern Europe in mid-January, known as the Grote Mandrenke, John would pass ordinance and push for the resettlement of the land within the city walls away from the environs of the Hagia Sophia, ruined Hippodrome, and Imperial Palaces. The Emperor, thinking ahead, wished to turn this area more firmly into a 'Royal Imperial' one--and in this, we find the first evidence of the Great Palace, and surrounding ruins, starting to be cleared, and handled [1].

Much of the year would pass thus, without much of note; administrative work dominated things--John had a new swath of territory to handle, and in this he rather 'simply' (some might say bluntly) dissolved the Governorship of Bitola; instead replacing it with the Marche of Skopia (rename of Skopje), which would be given to Manuel of Bitola's younger nephew, Theodore (now known as Theodore of Skopia), following Manuel's retirement, as Manuel himself lacked direct heirs. In this, John would also dissolve the Governorships of Arta, and Thessaly, as the former's Governor, Michael, wished to retire to a monastery, childless as Manuel. In their place, John would place Thessaly's now-former Governor, George, son of Sfyrios, as Governor of the newly-made Governorship of Aeolia; having fused much of the aforementioned Governorships together to create it.

It would also be in 1362 that many could draw the start of the "Palaiologan Renaissance"--a revival in art, literacy, culture and more, as the reopening of the Library of Constantinople would inspire many nobles of means to commission works of art, and akin. Inspired by this himself, John as Emperor would commission himself the reopening of the University of Constantinople, that ancient place of study and learning [2]. Amongst a new crop of students to the University would be the now-11-year-old Prince Manuel Palaiologos [3].

As this went on, in April the lands of France would see the consequences of their treaties with the English, as now-unpaid mercenaries, and general brigands, pillaged France as the 'Free Companies'--going so far as to defeat several French armies in battle, notably the Battle of Brignais. Thereafter, forced by expedience, the Black Prince would take to the field just as his first child, and eldest son, John of Bordeaux, was born to him and his wife Maria Palaiologina.

Although John's name, which was in honour of his maternal uncle, would cause strife between his father and grandfather, Edward III, due to some in the court seeing it as a negative, if unintended, connection to King John Lackland.

The Black Prince though, didn't give a fig and took out his frustrations on several 'Free Company' bands that dared cross near his lands.

Come June, John V would organise an official accord with his kin in Montferrat, known as the Palaiologi Treaty; with England and Castile (at the Black Prince's urging) coming to their own alliance at this time as well. September thereafter, Pope Innocent VI would die, and be succeeded by Urban V, who would come to cause much strife, if accidental, in the ongoing decade.

As if to show changing times, it was then that, in October, the English Parliament would be opened in English, not Anglo-Norman French; followed quickly thereafter by Edward III decreeing with the 'Pleading in English' Act that English would replace Anglo-Norman French in all courts of law.

The year would end, unsurprisingly given the rise of Murad to the Ottoman Sultanate, with several raids into the Duchy of Nicaea, and Artemios, well-aged by now, would die in battle against the Turks outside the walls of Smyrna--with Murad driven back following this by Artemios' son Nikephoros, who would quickly be confirmed as Duke of Nicaea by John in the aftermath.

The Emperor, livid with this turn of events, would arrive in Anatolia shortly after Christmas, and join up with Nikephoros to lead punitive raids into Ottoman lands well into January 1363, which would turn into a tit-for-tat affair that only ended when Murad was nearly killed in battle outside Sardis; being forced to flee, despite inflicting heavy casualties on the Romans.

A hasty treaty would be haggled over into February, when the two finally agreed to a 'lifetime' treaty what would expire when either died; sealed when John handed over Murad's disloyal brother Ibrahim, who had attempted to find sanctuary in Constantinople.

Murad would have Ibrahim executed shortly thereafter.

Because of this, John would spend months alongside Nikephoros, known as Nikephoros Artemiou (son of Artemious), reinforcing, and mustering, Roman-held Anatolia, before ensuring Artemios' return to Constantinople, and therein a large state-funeral worthy of a hero of the Empire.

In Nikephoros, John found an able ally, and a close friend; a worthy successor to his now-passed father.

Upon John's full return to Constantinople in late April of 1363, he would receive requests from Nicolae Alexandru, Voivode of Wallachia, for Roman suzerainty; Wallachia long under threat from Hungary-Croatia. Having seen what had become of Serbia, and wishing to stave off Catholic domination, Nicolae would request the same vassalage as Serbia; with Prince Manuel of Serbia being credited as having convinced him through letters.

Thus, come June, Wallachia would officially become a Roman client, with Nicolae Alexandru named Prince of Wallachia. Bulgaria's protests at this were, as expected, symbolic; Tsar Konstantin doing as such merely to keep up appearances. In surviving private letters, it is clear that he saw such a move as apt by John, and saw the merit in having a 'Roman buffer' between the lands of his people and Magyar dominance.

Hungary-Croatia, on the other hand, found it quite insulting, but King Louis could do nothing, as it did not violate their treaty; forcing the chivalric-minded ruler to bite his tongue, and do little else, as he instead threw himself further into winning himself support in Poland; having come to loathe the Balkans and it's constant problems.

July would be marked by John's betrothal of his now 10-year-old daughter, Irene, to Basil Megas Komnenos, heir of now-Emperor of Trebizond Alexios III, an in-law relation through his, and John's, mutual Kantakouzenos wives.

August, which was supposed to be another month of 'ease' for the Romans, turned out to be anything but.

The Venetians, long used to gouging the Cretans for men and material to fuel their empire, would push too far; asking too much in taxes of their Cretan subjects. So much was this sudden, and unwanted increase in dues, that even the Latin nobles and colonists of the island would join with their native Cretan fellows to protest--only to have this protest brutally suppressed by the Venetian governor of the isle.

Thus, came the Revolt of Saint Titus, as the Cretans--Latin, and Roman--took to carrying the banner of the isle's Patron Saint in defiance of Venice; they would not put up with their abuses anymore.

News of this would spread across the Mediterranean by September, and Venice would react by pressing Pope Urban V into asking all nearby powers not to intervene; Urban himself hoping to avoid spiralling bloodshed and to gain clout in his plans to return to the city of Rome from Avignon.

Sicily (which held the Duchy of Athens), Naples, Cyprus and Hungary-Croatia would agree, as they had been given the writ by Papal men.

John V, Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans? His had been written by Venice, at their own request to Urban V.

John said no.

Anger was rife; the Venetians had called John to 'not ruin their close, and Godly, partnership'--that single line had been the catalyst because it was nought by an arrogant falsehood to the Emperor.

Of course, when the Revolt heard of this they would beg John to come, and take them out from under Venice's abuse--and, despite his reservations, the Emperor would accept.

Sicily, of course, outright refused this--having holdings directly bordered on each side by the Romans meant that the threat of such an expansion was massive to them, and thus they directly sided with Venice.

The others? They couldn't have cared less, for various reasons. Hungary-Croatia was doing as it was still, Naples was still too unstable to bother, and Cyprus would not dare anger their closest Christian neighbour--an ally they might need in the future.

As a response to the Sicilian declaration of their intentions to aid the Venetians, John V would organise a new Golden Bull; declaring then and there, that his eldest son and heir, Andronikos the Younger, would be named 'Prince of Hellas'--in the English-like styling of the Prince of Wales; directly laying claim to all the lands of what one could consider Hellas... especially Athens.

In this time of war, as John began to rally his Empire, that he would unveil a project of his long in the making; the founding of the Sovereign Order of the Golden Fleece [4]--the first Orthodox Knighthood, directly modelled after, but also taking inspiration from both Christian and pre-Christian Hellenic mythology, the Order of the Garter that his own brother-in-law, the Black Prince, had been a founding member of.

Like the Garter, it would be limited to the Emperor, the Prince of Hellas, and 24 other Knights that John himself would, in a grand ceremony, Knight in the English style [5]. Amongst the 'Founders of the Golden Fleece' would be;

Emperor John V Palaiologos
Prince Andronikos Palaiologos, of Hellas
Prince Manuel Palaiologos
Prince Manuel I Kantakouzenos, of Serbia
Prince Nicolae I Alexandru, of Wallachia
Duke Nikephoros Artemiou, of Nicaea
Regent Reynard Durand, of Morea
Governor Theodore of Skopia
Governor George of Aetolia
Lord Basil of Lesbos (successor as Megas Doux, and Lord of the Isles, to Alexios Apokaukos)
Sir [6] Michael of Thessaloniki (one-armed Allagator of John V)
Sir John Artemiou (younger brother of Nikephoros)
Sir Ivan Shishman (cousin of Tsar Konstantin II, and ambassador to Constantinople c. 1358)

The Investiture Day of the Order would be in October.

Thus, surrounded by a new Knightly Order, John would begin to start preliminary aid for the Cretans; sending ships of supplies to them in the time before the Venetian Fleet would be able to attempt to snap shut the Aegean.

In Venice, the up-and-coming expedition would be a month into its 8-month muster.

In Sicily, King Frederick III would solicit the aid of his kinsmen in Aragon; garnering support for the use of Aragonese Sardinia in gathering men and material, although Aragon itself refused involvement in something they considered so petty.

The Palaiologi would spend Christmas together that year, with Prince Andronikos departing alongside fellow Knight's Reynard Durand and George of Aetolia, for the Governorship of Aetolia, in early January 1364. As this happened, Basil of Lesbos, in his capacity as Megas Doux, would begin the muster of the Imperial Fleet.

A long war was ahead of them.
---
[1] During John's reign, we start to see the slow revival of Constantinople, but this was often passive rather than through direct effort--mostly. The lands around the southern 'tip' of the peninsula that the city was built upon would be specifically targeted by the Imperial Household; cleared of ruins, and the Boukoleon's evolution into the largest Palace in the world, even by modern standards, would begin here. By 1453 or so almost the entire Great Palace had been subsumed into the Boukoleon, with much of the southern 'tip' having been added to the Palace's complex as a whole either as extensive gardens or as more floor space.

[2] Both the Library, and University, of Constantinople are the oldest of their kind in the world still in active operation by the modern day; producing famed figures such as Manuel Chrysoloras, and George of Trebizond; both famed linguists and scholars, with the former becoming the Megas Didaskalos or Great Teacher of the University, and the latter becoming an important conduit through which Romanitas would spread westward into Italy. Isaac Mesarites, a pioneering mathematician and engineer, is another example.

[3] It would become tradition within the Imperial Household to send male heirs to the University upon them reaching what was considered the sufficient age of the time. This would later be traditional at the age of 18. Later, the tutelage of all dynasts, non-heir males, and the women of the House, would also become the norm.

[4] As a 'Sovereign' Order, the Order of the Golden Fleece would be one of several Knightly Orders founded within the mid-1300s as a Monarchical one, ala one which would always have its 'Grandmaster' or leader be the Sovereign/Monarch of the nation of which it was founded. The Order of the Golden Fleece itself, alongside that of the Garter, would later be the inspiration for the Order of the Dragon, and the Golden Lion; the latter of which being created in one of many efforts by the House of Burgundy to unite their fractious subjects.
As of the modern era, the Order of the Golden Fleece is considered the most prodigious Order of Knighthood in the world, only rivalled by the Garter and Golden Lion.

[5] It is clear from surviving letters, of which there is an unusual amount due to the care with which both the Black Prince and John V, took in keeping them, that from the 1360s onward the Black Prince would have a lot of influence on the 'Latin-oriented' actions of the Emperor. Some view this disparagingly, as John letting himself be the puppet of 'the English Prince'--but most, official narrative or not, view it as two brotherly figures exchanging ideas, and so forth, as John himself in turn influenced Edward's own views on governance, and the responsibilities of a Sovereign, more-so than his father Edward III's chivalric 'warrior-first' mentality did.

[6] While in translation the Knights of the Romans would be known by the honorific 'Sir' in Romaic the title would originally be that of Kyris. This would, however, later evolve into simply 'Kyr'.
 
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Great chapter, nice that John is taking Crete back for the Empire!!! May this be the start of a painful downfall for the accused Venetians 😤😤😡😡. Maria and Edward having their firstborn son John be born is awesome, may he live up to his illustrious father the Black Prince and amazing Imperial Palaiologina Princess mother 😎😎.
[3] It would become tradition within the Imperial Household to send male heirs to the University upon them reaching what was considered the sufficient age of the time. This would later be traditional at the age of 18. Later, the tutelage of all dynasts, non-heir males, and the women of the House, would also become the norm.
It'll be interesting to see tales of future Palaiologoi going to University and all the mischief they'll absolutely be getting into. I expect some to even join the University as teachers or running the University themselves.
Like the Garter, it would be limited to the Emperor, the Prince of Hellas, and 24 other Knights that John himself would, in a grand ceremony, Knight in the English style [5].
Imagining such a scenario is reminding me of that scene in the movie Outlaw King with Edward Longshanks knighting all those men in the coming war with Scotland.

Keep up the amazing work 👍 👍 👍 👍
 
Also love the title prince of hellas. And hope the marriage with Margaret of England Will go through
Prince of Hellas is a very cool title. I only hope Andronikos and Margaret have a happy relationship and large family. No issues like Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine 😤😤, though it would be interesting to explore if only to see the British recreate such events TTL on film 🤣🤣🤣
 
Prince of Hellas is a very cool title. I only hope Andronikos and Margaret have a happy relationship and large family. No issues like Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine 😤😤, though it would be interesting to explore if only to see the British recreate such events TTL on film 🤣🤣🤣
Agreed, and May Edward the Black Prince survive to succeed his father for a goo number of years
 
the Golden Lion; the latter of which being created in one of many efforts by the House of Burgundy to unite their fractious subjects.
I'd love to see how Burgundy develops TTL, will they ever gain independence? Has Brittany created a Knightly Order for themselves like the Romans and English?
 
Great chapter, nice that John is taking Crete back for the Empire!!! May this be the start of a painful downfall for the accused Venetians 😤😤😡😡. Maria and Edward having their firstborn son John be born is awesome, may he live up to his illustrious father the Black Prince and amazing Imperial Palaiologina Princess mother 😎😎.

It'll be interesting to see tales of future Palaiologoi going to University and all the mischief they'll absolutely be getting into. I expect some to even join the University as teachers or running the University themselves.

Imagining such a scenario is reminding me of that scene in the movie Outlaw King with Edward Longshanks knighting all those men in the coming war with Scotland.

Keep up the amazing work 👍 👍 👍 👍
It'll certainly be interesting having a John II of England 🤣

Mayhaps, we'll have to see.

Good film but my god the shite armour of Edward II

Danke!
Prince of Hellas is a very cool title. I only hope Andronikos and Margaret have a happy relationship and large family. No issues like Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine 😤😤, though it would be interesting to explore if only to see the British recreate such events TTL on film 🤣🤣🤣
They are quite youthful, we'll just have to see
Agreed, and May Edward the Black Prince survive to succeed his father for a goo number of years
I'd personally have the Black Prince live as long as his father, dying around the 1390s in his early to mid 60s.
I have basically hinted at the fact that the Black Prince is going to live longer--either due to his dysentary being butterflied away, or the death of his eldest and most favourite child not putting the final nail in his coffin
I'd love to see how Burgundy develops TTL, will they ever gain independence? Has Brittany created a Knightly Order for themselves like the Romans and English?
I have basically outright stated at Burgundy will be independent, and the fact that I totally didn't steal the Order of the Golden Fleece had their Knightly Order be the Order of the Golden Lion hints towards the fact that they'll be having a very 'Low Countries' identity, as in the whole 'Lion of the Low Countries' thing.

As for Brittany? If and when they make their own it'll be later, because as of now they don't quite have the notion of being an independent power yet. I'd love suggestions on what to name it though.
Damm, we're TWO years away from the death (or survival) of a very important Duke
That had actually flown right over my head--considering how focused I've been on the Mediterranean and Anglo-France relations. Not quite sure how to handle that now that I know 🤣. I am open to suggestions!
 
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