Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
Also OTL, transport carrying HQ and HQ Company and 1st Battalion 4th Marines arrives at Manila, from Shanghai, then moves to Olonpongo(Subic Bay) Naval station, off loads and moves into the Barracks there, Olopongo Separate Marine Battalion, less the 5 AAA batteries, becomes 3rd Battalion 4th Marines.
Hi Butchpfd, now Butch, you're trying to rush things here, that's all together another story for me!

At this point I feel I have to offer some sort of an apology, to all you readers who take the trouble to follow my story, because the fact is we're not even close to the big bang, not that the date has moved from 7th (or 8th, depending on what side of the dateline you are on) December, but due to my style of story telling. As I said right at the beginning, I was writing purely for myself, but somewhere along the way I feel like I should take on a sense of responsibility to a readership I never expected to have. With experience, if I had to do it all over again, I would have merged some stories together, but when I first mapped out my alternative history, incidents, happenings or factual events were placed in a day slot, even an hour slot, with an effort to keep things in chronological order. Something no one has ever really commented on is the first part of the title of each post, we have just had MWI 41113016 Black Hawk, and the reason is, this is how I catalogue these stories as I write them, I will write, say three stories about Hong Kong, in part to ensure constancy and in part owing to the large amount of research I've done and want to share with you. Then, as other stories are written, and slotted into their time frame, so the Hong Kong stories begin to separate.

So for the Black Hawk story, I prefix it with MWI (Malaya What If) and then 41 (the year), 11 (the month), 30 (the day), and 16 (the hour). And why do we need the hour marked, well because when we get to the intense bit (the war) some days are going to take over a dozen stories to tell, as I weave you back and forth across the many different threads running concurrently. As a way of telling a story, a seasoned writer would probably do anything but this way, and as a reader this is going to appear, as one reader mentioned a little while ago, like following a glacial slide. So, what I'm trying to say is, the building of suspense you all work to produce with remarks, pictures etc, is being killed by my sloth like approach to the big bang, I've another thirty, yes 30 stories before that happens. I can only apologise to you all, and hope you'll hang in there and forgive me.
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
British imperial identity is always a complicated issue and I think the best way to answer will be to make sure understand what the question is trying to determine.

Freyberg is an interesting one. Born in England and a British soldier before (just) WW1, leading British (home) units during the latter parts of the War. So would be fair to call him a British general. On the other hand he very much is a New Zealander - grew up in NZ and went to Wellington College (which for you non Kiwis is one of the many Late Colonial founded State (government) High Schools that despite being government owned quickly became a place for the elite to send their children). So anyone going to a school like that very much is going to identify with NZ and the establishment regardless of what they go on to do whilst also being fairly described as a British or NZ General.


I went to a similar such place although now it is much reduced circumstances, WBHS, but it also was in the early 20th century basically NZ's most imperialist school. Loads of people like my father who went there post WW2 felt very British because of that and quite a few of them ended up in the UK.
Hi Julius Vogel, that's most interesting to read, because I've often thought that there was more than just a reluctance to allow Freyberg, or one of several Australian generals (Blamey and Bennett aside) to be given a corps command with British troops serving under them, at a time, 1941-42, when British generalship (is that a word?) was at a somewhat low ebb. I thought it was because the British establishment thought of them as not British enough.
 
Hi Butchpfd, now Butch, you're trying to rush things here, that's all together another story for me!

At this point I feel I have to offer some sort of an apology, to all you readers who take the trouble to follow my story, because the fact is we're not even close to the big bang, not that the date has moved from 7th (or 8th, depending on what side of the dateline you are on) December, but due to my style of story telling. As I said right at the beginning, I was writing purely for myself, but somewhere along the way I feel like I should take on a sense of responsibility to a readership I never expected to have. With experience, if I had to do it all over again, I would have merged some stories together, but when I first mapped out my alternative history, incidents, happenings or factual events were placed in a day slot, even an hour slot, with an effort to keep things in chronological order. Something no one has ever really commented on is the first part of the title of each post, we have just had MWI 41113016 Black Hawk, and the reason is, this is how I catalogue these stories as I write them, I will write, say three stories about Hong Kong, in part to ensure constancy and in part owing to the large amount of research I've done and want to share with you. Then, as other stories are written, and slotted into their time frame, so the Hong Kong stories begin to separate.

So for the Black Hawk story, I prefix it with MWI (Malaya What If) and then 41 (the year), 11 (the month), 30 (the day), and 16 (the hour). And why do we need the hour marked, well because when we get to the intense bit (the war) some days are going to take over a dozen stories to tell, as I weave you back and forth across the many different threads running concurrently. As a way of telling a story, a seasoned writer would probably do anything but this way, and as a reader this is going to appear, as one reader mentioned a little while ago, like following a glacial slide. So, what I'm trying to say is, the building of suspense you all work to produce with remarks, pictures etc, is being killed by my sloth like approach to the big bang, I've a,like younother thirty, yes 30 stories before that happens. I can only apologise to you all, and hope you'll hang in there and forgive me.
Hi Coxy,
I post real events with the OTL prefix.
I have found a couple of things from an additional sources , that I will pass on to you direct. I'll try to get it to you by Sunday eve. Central U.S.time no problems.
 
Hi Julius Vogel, that's most interesting to read, because I've often thought that there was more than just a reluctance to allow Freyberg, or one of several Australian generals (Blamey and Bennett aside) to be given a corps command with British troops serving under them, at a time, 1941-42, when British generalship (is that a word?) was at a somewhat low ebb. I thought it was because the British establishment thought of them as not British enough.
The British and Dutch Establishments have been in this area of the world since the late 16th or early 17th Century. The War of Spanish Succession was still a hundred years off, when the various East Indies Companies set down roots. Does it seem like the area in mid 20th Century is still a bit mired in that era?

Generalship depends upon the quality of the opposition. If your opponent is tribal, then the tactics are adapted to that level. If your challenger is acting on a state level, then it's
another matter all together. There are always an abundance of sociopaths who may rise to the occasion of Senior Heroism when necessary. It just takes a bit of time to achieve.

It's off topic. But if these events were solely amongst peers, i.e. British, Dutch and Japanese Monarchies, could a modus vivendi have been reached to avert hostilities? All three suffered from the indignity of the Boxer Rebellion. All three agreed it was a better policy to keep the locals controlled under a boot.

This isn't the case with the American state actors. They were from a former Colony. They had been on the receiving end of European Enlightenment. Unlike Burma, China, DEI, Malaya, PI, they were nominally European. However, that didn't matter as the were the dreaded Colonials. As such, they may have been seen as suffering from the want of a monarch, as feared by George III.
 

Mark1878

Donor
British imperial identity is always a complicated issue and I think the best way to answer will be to make sure understand what the question is trying to determine.

Freyberg is an interesting one. Born in England and a British soldier before (just) WW1, leading British (home) units during the latter parts of the War. So would be fair to call him a British general. On the other hand he very much is a New Zealander - grew up in NZ and went to Wellington College (which for you non Kiwis is one of the many Late Colonial founded State (government) High Schools that despite being government owned quickly became a place for the elite to send their children). So anyone going to a school like that very much is going to identify with NZ and the establishment regardless of what they go on to do whilst also being fairly described as a British or NZ General.


I went to a similar such place although now it is much reduced circumstances, WBHS, but it also was in the early 20th century basically NZ's most imperialist school. Loads of people like my father who went there post WW2 felt very British because of that and quite a few of them ended up in the UK.
We have another example of mixed British/NZ
Keith Park was born in NZ and fought as a member of the NZ forces in Gallipoli then transferred to the British Army then the RFC, He is seen in this timeline and OTL leading purely British forces. In OTL when he retired he went back to NZ.

I think NZ was always much more British than the other Dominions.
 
We have another example of mixed British/NZ
Keith Park was born in NZ and fought as a member of the NZ forces in Gallipoli then transferred to the British Army then the RFC, He is seen in this timeline and OTL leading purely British forces. In OTL when he retired he went back to NZ.

I think NZ was always much more British than the other Dominions.

I think it can differ depending on what part of the country one is from as well. You could generalise about NZ that way quite safely most of the time but I have seen people say that the establishment of Melbourne and Sydney that went to English style private school and played Union were more British than the British until quite late in the piece.
 
Maybe it wasn't the fact that he was smoking, but what he was actually smoking in the pipe?

Also the business that made his corncob pipes is still in business and producing the pipes:

Missouri Meerschaum Company
According to the site, Meerschaum means sea foam...Imagine the torture affiliated
with taking a long drag on your sea foam pipe, if you are a Five Star Army General. Better
yet, if what's in your pipe is produced hydroponically on ship, then it becomes "sea weed"

Any good squid at that time would have known how to make apple/grapefruit/orange juice/
pineapple jack from a Number Ten can...So perhaps he was taking a draw from his pipe
of some ship brew jack!?! It would mellow him some, since you'd need to go either to
the binnacle/sick bay or torpedo room for medicinal ETOH or Gilly Juice.⚓
 
MWI 41113023 Tom Thumb

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
1941, Sunday 30 November;

He stood looking in the mirror at himself, getting ready for bed, at the end of a very long day. He was in a top floor room of Admiralty House, a guest of Rear Admiral Spooner, the Naval Base commander. Standing in just his white socks, underpants and string singlet, all 5 foot 4 of him, he didn’t look particularly impressive, but to the world outside his room, tomorrow he would be promoted to full admiral and made Commander in Chief of the new Eastern Fleet, a man not to be trifled with.

He’d arrived mid-morning by Catalina, an American flying boat, from Colombo, Ceylon, where he’d left his flagship, HMS Prince of Wales, with his Chief of Staff, Rear Admiral Palliser accompanying him. They’d been met by Vice Admiral Layton, who was waiting to whisk them away for quick showers, change of clothes and a light lunch, before a detailed three-hour briefing. At first, he was quite bemused by it all, but as Layton updated them, so he began to appreciate the need for urgency.

Events were unfolding quite fast now, and his first meeting tomorrow morning of the War Council, promised to be a very important one. Both Governor Caldecott and Lord Gort would be expecting him to make some decisions and he needed to understand what the Royal Navy had already committed to. Layton was staying on for now, still commanding the China Station, but in a couple of weeks that would all be folded into the Eastern Fleet.

The appointment as commander of the ‘Flying Squadron’ back in late October had turned his world upside down. No longer a desk admiral, busying himself with plans and reports, it was now a sea going command of some significant importance. The original thought of just the Prince of Wales, had quickly been modified to include the battlecruiser Repulse,

a fast ship, but lacking the extensive refit her sister Renown had been given. These two and only four destroyers, an indication in itself of how stretched the Royal Navy was, was all he had, the inclusion of an aircraft carrier had been denied due to a lack of availability. Nevertheless, this was meant to be a show of strength, a deterrent, and that is what he would do, with plenty of showing the flag!

In anticipation of the arrival of his Flying Squadron, Force Z, Layton and the Admiralty had been assembling what supporting forces they could. Two days ago, the big County class heavy cruiser, HMS Cornwall, had arrived, having just escorted in the latest convoy, to become part of Force Z, joining the heavy cruiser HMS Exeter, which had arrived a week ago. The famous Exeter had, during her year’s rebuild following the Battle of the River Plate, been extensively modernised, with a vastly improved AA suite and radars. Also, at anchor was the old Australian V class destroyer, HMAS Vampire, which having completed an extensive refit, had just returned from a convoy escorting “working up” cruise.

He could also call on the services of the ‘Light Squadron’, an Anglo-Dutch formation, each nation providing one light cruiser and two destroyers, which was currently at sea on manoeuvres. They had enjoyed two full months together, and with the aid of liaison officers and small signalling parties on the Dutch ships, could fully integrate with other British naval units.

Not part of Force Z, but soon to come under Phillips command, was the newly formed 21st Minesweeping Flotilla (RAN), composing of four newly built Bathurst corvettes, Maryborough, Bendigo, Goulburn and Burnie. These vessels were far more capable than just minesweepers, being able to provide ASW escort duties, and for their size a reasonable AA suite. Another potent force that would be at his disposal, was the small 4th Submarine flotilla, the four Rainbow class, with the promise of loaned Dutch submarines, joining them. While he would also have the two inshore squadrons, both of very limited capabilities, experience and strength.

At dinner tonight, Layton had introduced him to Lord Gort, who, despite their senior roles in the UK, he had never really spent time with. Gort outlined the pre-emptive plan of occupying the Kra Isthmus, and how he was considering putting the allocated Army and RAF forces on 24 hours’ notice. As Tom and Tiger discussed the situation here in the Far East, so he appreciated just how important the Royal Navy’s role was, how crucial it was that they work together. Yes, he reflected, the situation called for a strong man, he knew Layton, Cunningham and Somerville thought of him as a desk-based Admiral, a poor appointment, and what was needed was a fighting Admiral, but as he slid into bed, and switched the bedside light out, Admiral Tom Phillips vowed, he would be that man.
 
" Yes, he reflected, the situation called for a strong man, he knew Layton, Cunningham and Somerville thought of him as a desk-based Admiral, a poor appointment, and what was needed was a fighting Admiral, but as he slid into bed, and switched the bedside light out, Admiral Tom Phillips vowed, he would be that man." Oh oh.................

This is suggesting that at a time when the RN needed a clever but cautious commander they have instead somebody who's trying to prove something. Is that what happened in OTL? Is this why Admiral Philips sallied forth without waiting for air cover?
 
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Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
The arrival of Phillips in Singapore ahead of his Flagship, his opportunity to meet up with the team in place, and get an informed view of the problems confronting him. Will inevitably give him a much better idea of the reality of the situation, and ensure that there is much better cooperation between him and the others. I believe that he will once the Japanese attack, he will receive much better intelligence as to the Japanese positions are, and not the vague reports he received IOTL. Park is going to ensure that his force has some form of fighter cover, if only a four plane flight. Which given that the initial Japanese air attacks didn’t have fighter escorts IOTL, would see them subjected to a significant spoiling attack. Nor will he find himself under pressure to do something, in the way he was, as I doubt that the initial Japanese attacks are going to be anywhere as successful ITTL as they were IOTL. And providing that he can avoid being sunk within the first week, there is a good chance that he will be available to led the combined allied fleets against the Japanese especially in the DEI.

RR.
 
1941, Sunday 30 November;

He stood looking in the mirror at himself, getting ready for bed, at the end of a very long day. He was in a top floor room of Admiralty House, a guest of Rear Admiral Spooner, the Naval Base commander. Standing in just his white socks, underpants and string singlet, all 5 foot 4 of him, he didn’t look particularly impressive, but to the world outside his room, tomorrow he would be promoted to full admiral and made Commander in Chief of the new Eastern Fleet, a man not to be trifled with.

He’d arrived mid-morning by Catalina, an American flying boat, from Colombo, Ceylon, where he’d left his flagship, HMS Prince of Wales, with his Chief of Staff, Rear Admiral Palliser accompanying him. They’d been met by Vice Admiral Layton, who was waiting to whisk them away for quick showers, change of clothes and a light lunch, before a detailed three-hour briefing. At first, he was quite bemused by it all, but as Layton updated them, so he began to appreciate the need for urgency.

Events were unfolding quite fast now, and his first meeting tomorrow morning of the War Council, promised to be a very important one. Both Governor Caldecott and Lord Gort would be expecting him to make some decisions and he needed to understand what the Royal Navy had already committed to. Layton was staying on for now, still commanding the China Station, but in a couple of weeks that would all be folded into the Eastern Fleet.

The appointment as commander of the ‘Flying Squadron’ back in late October had turned his world upside down. No longer a desk admiral, busying himself with plans and reports, it was now a sea going command of some significant importance. The original thought of just the Prince of Wales, had quickly been modified to include the battlecruiser Repulse,

a fast ship, but lacking the extensive refit her sister Renown had been given. These two and only four destroyers, an indication in itself of how stretched the Royal Navy was, was all he had, the inclusion of an aircraft carrier had been denied due to a lack of availability. Nevertheless, this was meant to be a show of strength, a deterrent, and that is what he would do, with plenty of showing the flag!

In anticipation of the arrival of his Flying Squadron, Force Z, Layton and the Admiralty had been assembling what supporting forces they could. Two days ago, the big County class heavy cruiser, HMS Cornwall, had arrived, having just escorted in the latest convoy, to become part of Force Z, joining the heavy cruiser HMS Exeter, which had arrived a week ago. The famous Exeter had, during her year’s rebuild following the Battle of the River Plate, been extensively modernised, with a vastly improved AA suite and radars. Also, at anchor was the old Australian V class destroyer, HMAS Vampire, which having completed an extensive refit, had just returned from a convoy escorting “working up” cruise.

He could also call on the services of the ‘Light Squadron’, an Anglo-Dutch formation, each nation providing one light cruiser and two destroyers, which was currently at sea on manoeuvres. They had enjoyed two full months together, and with the aid of liaison officers and small signalling parties on the Dutch ships, could fully integrate with other British naval units.

Not part of Force Z, but soon to come under Phillips command, was the newly formed 21st Minesweeping Flotilla (RAN), composing of four newly built Bathurst corvettes, Maryborough, Bendigo, Goulburn and Burnie. These vessels were far more capable than just minesweepers, being able to provide ASW escort duties, and for their size a reasonable AA suite. Another potent force that would be at his disposal, was the small 4th Submarine flotilla, the four Rainbow class, with the promise of loaned Dutch submarines, joining them. While he would also have the two inshore squadrons, both of very limited capabilities, experience and strength.

At dinner tonight, Layton had introduced him to Lord Gort, who, despite their senior roles in the UK, he had never really spent time with. Gort outlined the pre-emptive plan of occupying the Kra Isthmus, and how he was considering putting the allocated Army and RAF forces on 24 hours’ notice. As Tom and Tiger discussed the situation here in the Far East, so he appreciated just how important the Royal Navy’s role was, how crucial it was that they work together. Yes, he reflected, the situation called for a strong man, he knew Layton, Cunningham and Somerville thought of him as a desk-based Admiral, a poor appointment, and what was needed was a fighting Admiral, but as he slid into bed, and switched the bedside light out, Admiral Tom Phillips vowed, he would be that man.
Okay I am liking what Force Z is made up right now. Don't know what is the out come of HMS Mauritius, HMS Isis, HMAS Vampire, and HMAS Vendetta at Singapore. To bad HMS Ilex is at Durban South Africa, HMS Kelvin and HMS Nubian at Mumbai India, getting repairs. Keep going @Fatboy Coxy
 
1941, Sunday 30 November;

...As Tom and Tiger discussed the situation here in the Far East, so he appreciated just how important the Royal Navy’s role was, how crucial it was that they work together. Yes, he reflected, the situation called for a strong man, he knew Layton, Cunningham and Somerville thought of him as a desk-based Admiral, a poor appointment, and what was needed was a fighting Admiral, but as he slid into bed, and switched the bedside light out, Admiral Tom Phillips vowed, he would be that man.
Copenhagenosis or Trafalgarmania? If VADM Phillips can remain at his desk, does RADM Layton take charge and avoid a "Full Fathom Five" Force Z conclusion? Find out soon!
 
Okay I am liking what Force Z is made up right now. Don't know what is the out come of HMS Mauritius, HMS Isis, HMAS Vampire, and HMAS Vendetta at Singapore. To bad HMS Ilex is at Durban South Africa, HMS Kelvin and HMS Nubian at Mumbai India, getting repairs. Keep going @Fatboy Coxy
Don't forget Capetown being repaired in Mumbai after taking a torpedo in the Red Sea
 

Fatboy Coxy

Monthly Donor
" Yes, he reflected, the situation called for a strong man, he knew Layton, Cunningham and Somerville thought of him as a desk-based Admiral, a poor appointment, and what was needed was a fighting Admiral, but as he slid into bed, and switched the bedside light out, Admiral Tom Phillips vowed, he would be that man." Oh oh.................

This is suggesting that at a time when the RN needed a clever but cautious commander they have instead somebody who's trying to prove something. Is that what happened in OTL? Is this why Admiral Philips sallied forth without waiting for air cover?
Hi Draconis, When Phillips was appointed in command of Force Z , and later to command the Eastern Fleet, it certainly raised a few eyebrows in the Navy, he was, as I have written, a desk admiral. Quite how or why he got the post I don't really know, this wasn't a banishment, and the Navy didn't lack for good competent sea going admirals. I feel it was more likely a political appointment, in that Churchill wanted him, Churchill certainly knew him as a planner, and perhaps thought Phillips would be able to 'carry off' the deterrence Churchill hoped Force Z might be.

Phillips wasn't an idiot, he was a very capable staff officer, but his lack of sea going experience told in some of the bad decisions he made. Sailing north to confront the Japanese amphibious landings wasn't one, IMO, the pressure to act, and do something would have seen Sommerville, Cunningham et al, sailing north. It's as Cunningham famously said, it takes 3 years to build a ship, and 300 years to build a new tradition, the Navy just couldn't sail away, the mistake was sending Force Z to Singapore in the first place. However, Phillips should have established what air cover he could use, should have broken radio silence once they were spotted and asked for help, and he spent far too long looking for a Japanese landing at Kuantan that never was.
 
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