How much more can be taken from the ME, and other theaters? If the 7th Armored Brigade went to Singapore before the war Crusader might not happen or fail. If that happens Tobruk may fall, or at least be seriously threatened.
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
HJ Tulp, it appears you are looking at everything going for the Japanese as in OTL, instead as possibly this TL. Surubaya, was not usable because of inadequate air defense, even less fighters @23 P-36 Hawks, and AAA 8 x 80 mm AAA, available then Singapore, and in this time line it has far better air defense capabilities, , Surubaya also had minefields that were poorly mapped. Here is a link about the base, including a photo ca1941. Not all that big. Far smaller then even Mariveles on Bataan, let alone Cavite or Singapore. https://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Soerabaja.htm
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That's my understanding as well - it was only the 'Black Cats' then a 3rd tier green Indian Army Division - it would go onto be one of the Divisions that fought the Japanese the most and an Elite Jungle fighting formation but not in early 1942
That map was 'post' fall of Rangoon but I am not sure when those 9 Chinese Divisions moved to those positions shown
Some good information here on the movements of the Chinese Expedition force in Burma
Looks like the first Chinese Rgt (227th Regiment) moved into Burma during Dec 1941
"Additional reinforcements did arrive in the form of the Chinese Expeditionary Force. The 227th Regiment entered Burma in December 1941 and was later followed by the Chinese Fifth, Sixth and Sixty-Sixth Armies. Chinese operations centered on the defence of the Shan States, Karenni and the Sittang Valley"
The 7th Brigade was squandered as Cunningham divided his superior forces into bite sized chunks and then manoeuvred in such a fashion that allowed Rommel's Manoeuvre units to concentrate on each unit in turn.
Should have just gone straight at em with the whole force - but the problem remained that the Desert Army was still then fighting as Brigades and not Divisions while the DAK and Italian forces under Rommel's command were.
But I doubt very much it would have been released any sooner and had it not been badly damaged during Crusader it might not have even been in the Middle East rebuilding and therefore available for duties in Java (subsequently diverted to Rangoon).
Units could however have been taken from the UK Garrison - they had a large number of tanks in the UK including many 'not as bad as people make out' Covenanter tanks
One of my darlings is the Australian Armoured Division is sent 300 odd of them with the intention that it was to allow the Aussies to stand up training of its 2 Tank Brigades and one is subsequently sent to Malaya.
But thats probably not for this TL
The first rule of 'Malaya What if' is that we don't talk about tanks - also the second rule
Mr. Coxy will be along presently to give you a smack across back of the legs with a ruler
Very valid points, but my question was in this TL was the 7th Armored Brigade sent to Singapore in the fall of 1941? If so it's absence from the ME could have an adverse effect in the desert war. It isn't just a matter of having tanks sitting around, it's shipping them along with the logistical base to support an armored unit as opposed to an infantry unit. It took months to ship tanks, or most things for that matter from the UK to the ME, or Singapore. That takes long term planning, and a set of priorities. An active war was going on in the ME while Malaya & Burma were low priorities.
The question is, how do the changes in Malaya ATL change the strategic situation in the central and eastern axis of attacks in the DEI?
I do not deny that Soerabaja had its downsides, but it's vulnerability from air attacks would not be a factor until February 1942. Until then it had the advantage of being reasonably safe and reasonably close to the front at the same time. I don't know when Hart made the decision but he was mainly concerned with force preservation and wanted to get his ships as far away from the DEI as soon as possible.
I don't know - I have not had an opportunity to go back through the TL to check
And your quite right on the British priorities - losing Malaya and even a lot of Burma did not directly imperil the British Empire
Losing Egypt and / or a Russian defeat would have been more serious
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
I have very firm views on this whole thing about the loss of Manila, or the loss of Sumatra causes the fall of Singapore. Singapore has to be supplied by sea from both India and Australia. I'm not sure she can afford to lose either, logistically. Japanese ability to effectively interdict those sea lines of supply dooms Singapore, and for the Japanese to do that both Sumatra and Java have to be captured. So I can successfully defend Malaya/Singapore from the advances of the 25th Army under Yamashita, but still, later, lose Malaya/Singapore, if I can't then go on and save Java. Sumatra can only fall if either Malaya or Java are taken first. I don't see any Malta style convoys running through either the Malacca or Sunda Straits.
I'm feeling quite good about delaying the Japanese 25th Army's advance down Malaya, but when my thoughts turn to saving Java, I'm very unsure, unless the US Navy commits in quite a big way. And therein lies the problem for me, I'm not sure she can.
I'm feeling quite good about delaying the Japanese 25th Army's advance down Malaya, but when my thoughts turn to saving Java, I'm very unsure, unless the US Navy commits in quite a big way. And therein lies the problem for me, I'm not sure she can.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Cryhavoc101, you, my boy are sailing very close to a meeting with Jimmy the slipper!
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Butchpfd, thank you for linking that article, it's part of this site, https://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/index.html, which has been and will no doubt continue to be an excellent source for me, my thanks and congratulations to Jan Visser, who has put in an undoubtedly huge amount of love and personal time into creating the site.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Admiral Jellicoe has just been made class prefect, he's clearly a boy who will go far!
MWI 41100719 – Fun On The Beach
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Tuesday 07 October;
It was their second field exercise, this time at full regimental strength. Platoons and companies had become familiar with climbing into and out of the daihatsu’s for about a week now, and three days ago they did it at battalion strength. Sailing out of Canton, south towards a quiet coastline, in a sheltered bay, with sandy beaches, they had practiced a timed landing, in three waves, watched by not just all the senior regimental officers, but some Divisional ones from both their own 18th Division, but also from the 5th as well.
So today they were back again, the entire 56th Infantry Regiment, same place, using three army transports, one per battalion, daihatsu’s swinging off davits into the water, scramble nets draping their sides, with a chance to correct faults, cut times and land in a more organised way. They weren’t new to the game, and neither was the 14th Engineer Regt, who managed the landing, manned the landing craft, and synchronised the three ships. But they did need the practice.
Superior Private Inamoto at the wheel, brought the Daihatsu close to the nets, watched by his lance corporal. Boat hooks at either end reached out and caught the nets, and sheltered by the side of the ship, with a gentle swell under him, he held the boat there. The Lance Corporal waved up to an officer looking over the side of the ship, and almost immediately, a platoon of men began to climb over the side and down the scramble nets into the boat. As the troops climbed in so they were shuffled over to the far side, their sergeant barking out the order to face forward to the bows of the ship. Before the platoon was fully in a second platoon began its decent.
Loaded now, and with the signal given, Inamoto turns the wheel, and the craft bobs away, heading to a line of Daihatsu’s forming up, facing the beach. He idles back, looking left, waiting for the flag, a big red one, its waved and swept down. He guns the diesel engine, and they race in alongside fellows, all wanting to be first. The lance corporal points, a little to the right, the shoreline closing fast, and then chops his hand down, Inamoto cuts back the engine and her momentum carry’s her into the shallows, grounding in the sand, as the engineers at the front drop the bow ramp, and the two platoons race each other to disembark, splashing through the knee high water, up onto the beach, light machine gun sections dropping down to offer covering fire, a couple of knee mortars setting up and firing smoke shells, a Bangalore torpedo team racing forward to breach an imaginary line of barbed wire.
Into reverse now, and provided they didn’t ground too hard, she would pull off. Bow ramp back up, she eases out, Inamoto and the Lance Corporal judging when to turn her, careful not to broach in the incoming waves, get past the white water, and here we go, spinning round quite nicely. He has time to look along the beach line, a couple of Daihatsu’s have grounded, and no doubt their crews would get chewed out hard for that. But for him, it was back to the ship, and pick up a second wave.
Late afternoon and they were waiting for the flag, mission complete, idling off shore, in line again, their part done now. There it was, exercise complete, back to the shore, and get everybody back on ship. This was much slower, especially with the anti-tank and infantry guns, which had to be swung up and in by the ship’s cranes, suspended in cargo nets, and harder for the tired troops having to climb up the scramble nets, with the sun setting, after a day’s fun on the beach.
It was their second field exercise, this time at full regimental strength. Platoons and companies had become familiar with climbing into and out of the daihatsu’s for about a week now, and three days ago they did it at battalion strength. Sailing out of Canton, south towards a quiet coastline, in a sheltered bay, with sandy beaches, they had practiced a timed landing, in three waves, watched by not just all the senior regimental officers, but some Divisional ones from both their own 18th Division, but also from the 5th as well.
So today they were back again, the entire 56th Infantry Regiment, same place, using three army transports, one per battalion, daihatsu’s swinging off davits into the water, scramble nets draping their sides, with a chance to correct faults, cut times and land in a more organised way. They weren’t new to the game, and neither was the 14th Engineer Regt, who managed the landing, manned the landing craft, and synchronised the three ships. But they did need the practice.
Superior Private Inamoto at the wheel, brought the Daihatsu close to the nets, watched by his lance corporal. Boat hooks at either end reached out and caught the nets, and sheltered by the side of the ship, with a gentle swell under him, he held the boat there. The Lance Corporal waved up to an officer looking over the side of the ship, and almost immediately, a platoon of men began to climb over the side and down the scramble nets into the boat. As the troops climbed in so they were shuffled over to the far side, their sergeant barking out the order to face forward to the bows of the ship. Before the platoon was fully in a second platoon began its decent.
Loaded now, and with the signal given, Inamoto turns the wheel, and the craft bobs away, heading to a line of Daihatsu’s forming up, facing the beach. He idles back, looking left, waiting for the flag, a big red one, its waved and swept down. He guns the diesel engine, and they race in alongside fellows, all wanting to be first. The lance corporal points, a little to the right, the shoreline closing fast, and then chops his hand down, Inamoto cuts back the engine and her momentum carry’s her into the shallows, grounding in the sand, as the engineers at the front drop the bow ramp, and the two platoons race each other to disembark, splashing through the knee high water, up onto the beach, light machine gun sections dropping down to offer covering fire, a couple of knee mortars setting up and firing smoke shells, a Bangalore torpedo team racing forward to breach an imaginary line of barbed wire.
Into reverse now, and provided they didn’t ground too hard, she would pull off. Bow ramp back up, she eases out, Inamoto and the Lance Corporal judging when to turn her, careful not to broach in the incoming waves, get past the white water, and here we go, spinning round quite nicely. He has time to look along the beach line, a couple of Daihatsu’s have grounded, and no doubt their crews would get chewed out hard for that. But for him, it was back to the ship, and pick up a second wave.
Late afternoon and they were waiting for the flag, mission complete, idling off shore, in line again, their part done now. There it was, exercise complete, back to the shore, and get everybody back on ship. This was much slower, especially with the anti-tank and infantry guns, which had to be swung up and in by the ship’s cranes, suspended in cargo nets, and harder for the tired troops having to climb up the scramble nets, with the sun setting, after a day’s fun on the beach.
I can only say after Pearl Harbor the USN was on the strict defense. In the months after Pearl Harbor, they were shoring up defenses in the Eastern Pacific, and putting garrisons in island bases to create a line to Australia. The 3 carriers engaged in some raids but sending any major fleet units to reinforce Hart's fleet was out of the question. Everyone in SEA was just buying time. The only supply ships that got to the Bataan were submarines. Some ships might have gotten to the Southern Island, I know some transport aircraft, and bombers could fly in and out, but no significant reinforcements could get through.
When MacArthur left Corregidor on a PT Boat it was a high-risk stunt. One of MacArthur's failings was not evacuating female nurses on Submarines, what they went though was a nightmare. USS Boise was a fine modern Light Cruiser, and she was lucky to run aground, and need to leave the theater for repairs. If she'd been at Java Sea, she'd have been the most powerful ship in the Allied fleet but would probably been lost. Well maybe she'd make a difference, because in a naval battle a few lucky hits can make a big difference. Her guns could do serious damage to a Japanese heavy cruiser, so you never know. The Japanese destroyer, and torpedo superiority is what would concern me, particularly if it goes into a night action.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
That looks like fun, http://www.roundtheisland.org.uk/web/code/php/main_c.php?section=home
By Late December Admiral Stark and the Joint Chiefs had made the decision to cut losses and prepare for the long haul. Our main bases were to be Brisbane, Perth and Darwin. Transit bases Fiji, Samoa, New Caledonia, and Auckland. All troops to be sent from Stateside were to secure the line of communications and aid the defense of Australia. Hart was obeying the orders to defend Australia and preserve his fleet as a force in being, especially his fleet train.
When Hart left for Java, he knew he was writing off his small craft and men left behind , knowing he could bring out about 50 personnel per submarine of the 6 he assigned to that purpose.
From everything I have read the nurses were all volunteers to stay behind, Hart had to make the hard decision to bring out some nurses, but not all, giving preference to his radio, and radar technicians and codebreakers. The loss of whom would have been a disaster.
