If the Allied pilots, both Commonwealth and Dutch have at least some inkling of what kind of tactics they should employ against the more maneuverable Japanese planes flown by well experienced IJAAF and IJNAF pilots they may survive a little longer and be more effective then OTL. Radar and a working fighter intercept control system should be a great help. And of course the more intensive training being conducted here in this ATL using lessons learned in the Battle of Britain.
That's a very good point, but how would the RAF come to that conclusion before the shooting started, it's obvious with hindsight, but back then?One other rather simple but important detail concerning Japanese airplanes, fighters and bombers. They completely lack any kind of self-sealing protection for the fuel tanks at this point. It would be wise to ensure there would be a sufficient supply of incendiary MG ammunition in both the 303 and .50 calibers. For the Blenheim and Battle gunners as well. The 303, becoming somewhat inadequate against the better protected German airplanes should still suffice against the Japanese airplanes especially if the 303 MGs are firing incendiary rounds.
Hang on, there have been multiple posts about a jungle training school being set up ITTL and/or adjustments to account for fighting in jungle. Post 403 for example is about an exercise showing how jungle could be used to flank an attack down a road, So yes ITTL the British know a lot better how to fight in Jungle and have been building fitness up etc.I've been reading the thread. How do the British know what tactics the Japanese will use against them? What would make them think the Japanese would try to do things that they considered nothing short of crazy? They never thought the Japanese could cross terrain they thought it wasn't feasible for them to cross. It's amazing that someone in a position to do something about was able to intuitively realize what the Japanese would do so that doctrine could be changed to meet it. Their physical training standards would be changed so they could operate on foot with the same level of stamina as the Japanese.
Everything we know about Malaya and why the Japanese won has been compensated for, on land sea, and air so the Japanese can be smashed in a head on clash. As the Japanese move to flank the British their forces will be blocked, and then cut off. There is no learning curve the British know in advance what it took them years to learn in brutal combat. Somehow, they know in advance just how tough Japanese soldiers were, when in the OTL they looked down on them.
Yes, I read that, but how do you fix a problem that the whole system tells you isn't there? The British spent the first 3 years of WWII not understanding how to deal with the Germans. In this case they understand how to deal with unknow Japanese tactics in advance. They don't need a learning curve; they just figured it all out intuitively.Hang on, there have been multiple posts about a jungle training school being set up ITTL and/or adjustments to account for fighting in jungle. Post 403 for example is about an exercise showing how jungle could be used to flank an attack down a road, So yes ITTL the British know a lot better how to fight in Jungle and have been building fitness up etc.
Hi Ramp-Rat, The British do have an advantage over the Japanese in R/T, but its certainly not a perfect system. Currently air-ground R/T is only about 40 miles at best, from the ground controller, while air to air between a squadron's aircraft is even more limited.The Japanese are about to enter something that they have never faced before, a developed and sophisticated air defence system. Which while not as sophisticated as that in Britain does however have some advantages over the British home system. Given the size of Malaya and in comparison to Britain the lack of targets, there is a good chance that the British defenders will have a much longer warning time, to prepare their forces. Thus a Japanese attack against Singapore will find that not only are the ground forces fully alert and prepared, but that the defending aircraft are similarly in position ready to engage the Japanese attackers. And unlike the Chinese, the British all have R/T and are able to communicate between themselves and their ground controllers.
RR.
Hi steamboy, I'll keep you guessing on that oneAnd assuming that there's a Force Z analogue (and we can assume there is as there was that very pointed interlude with the PoW and Repulse), that either Phillips sails and coordinates with air cover and that his forces are a bit more than what he sailed with OTL to put more AA guns on targets. Or, he does not coordinate with air but the RAF opts to provide air cover regardless of the Admiral's wishes.
The presence of even 6 - 8 Hurricanes over the fleet during the attack could prove vital.
Hi Belisarius II, I am, in the theoretical sense, and delivering fighter training to a lot of novice pilots, they are trying to keep things simple, but what you have said has given me food for thought, and I will need to ponder on this one a bit more.Respectfully I hope you're not going to say that by capturing a Zero in China the whole tactical doctrine of the RAF will change to a never dogfight a Japanese fighter. It took months of combat experience for the Allies to learn that lesson. Just as army doctrine is being changed to have the British fighting more like they did in 1944 changes like that take years, and don't happen without any discernable reason. Doctrine usually only changes over years, or because of traumatic experiences in combat that need to be absorbed over time. At the end of 1941 the British Army still didn't really know how to deal with German tactics and were outfought over & over again. Even in 1944 the British needed overwhelming material superiority to defeat the Japanese in the Jungle.
Hi Belisarius II, Japanese scientists were aware of the potentials of Radar, but I don't think they understood how it was used in the British air defence system in the BoB, nor how much more technically advanced the British, and later Americans were. They were, and are in my timeline, deployment in great secrecy in Malaya.The Japanese were well aware of radar and had a general idea how it had worked in the Battle of Britain. If the British had a radar network in Malaya the Japanese would know about it from there extensive spy network. Just like the Germans could've used low level attacks on radar stations to damage the network. Flying down the spine of Malaya to use terrain to mask radar is an effective tactic. Having a radar net doesn't mean you have fighters on call to shootdown CAS aircraft. There couldn't be constant fighter cover for frontline troops. Having follow on fighters to chase down retreating Japanese air strikes isn't realistic. You'd almost have to have an AWACS capability to do that. If things worked that way the Japanese air forces would've been destroyed in the first few months of the war, as soon as radar sites were set up.
Hi Belisarius, I thought the heavy air filters on the Hurricanes were a hangover from operations in the North African deserts.The tropicalized Hurrican IIB in Malaya had heavy air filters which reduced performance giving them little chance unless they had an attitude advantage at the beginning of the engagement.
Hi Belisarius II, While they aspire to provide a radar network for the whole country, they are a long way off that, only southern Johore and Singapore Island will be covered, as well as a few other points in Malaya.In the situation Singapore Island was in it didn't make any difference. It seems what we're talking about is a IADS for the whole of Malaya. I really don't think the British could achieve this under the circumstances. The Japanese would be aware of such a massive project and have to take it into account. This isn't Britian where the RAF is waiting for massive bomber formations to form up over Calais. Against smaller attack groups at medium to low level attacks such a defense is less effective than in the BoB.
Hi Driftless, I don't think the Japanese spy network was anything other than just OK. Historically they got a lot of things wrong, but the British defence was so bad it didn't really matter. But it was better than the British and American spy networks which were very poor. The main advantage in this field is the allied wireless interception teams, beginning to break down Japanese codes.Another wildcard to consider: with the effective spy network the Japanese had in Malaya/Singapore, they should have some reasonably accurate assessment of the Commonwealth forces - in this altered universe. Would they/could they alter their invasion plan to adjust to a more capable Commonwealth force, or was the IJA already spread as thin as they could be? Also, given the more modest uptick in Commonwealth and Dutch naval forces in the region, would that even alter the IJN's already ambitious battle plan, spanning the Pacific? (i.e. no carriers for the Malaya invasion - at least not till early 1942)
Hi Belisarius II, we'll deal with that matter a lot further down the lineWith the extent that the Japanese had infiltrated Allied ranks in Malaya it would be impossible for them not to know it was a radar network. They had at least 1 British air leason officer passing them intel who was briefed on procedures. The Malayans involved in construction projects hear lots of things the British think they don't have the brains to understand. Thousands of people would know what was happening. The difference between England & Malaya is many Malayans had no loyalty to England.
They are just working out tactics to fight in Jungle ( which they did not do OTL ). They are not trying to counter specific Japanese tactics, which they don't know, just what their own troops have found they can do. So they know you can infiltrate, they know that holding a solid line is all but impossible due to lack of line of sight etc and they are training to counter that. Its not rocket science, its not countering unknown tactics, its just simply not being complacent as they were OTL.Yes, I read that, but how do you fix a problem that the whole system tells you isn't there? The British spent the first 3 years of WWII not understanding how to deal with the Germans. In this case they understand how to deal with unknow Japanese tactics in advance. They don't need a learning curve; they just figured it all out intuitively.
Hi Belisarius II, thank you for this, I do need to try and keep a line between what the British could, would and should have done militarily as good practice, as opposed to just playing smart with what we know now. Obviously, every change I make from the historical path opens me up to a charge of being smart with hindsight, and people will differ on various changes, as to whether they were a realistic course of action or not.I've been reading the thread. How do the British know what tactics the Japanese will use against them? What would make them think the Japanese would try to do things that they considered nothing short of crazy? They never thought the Japanese could cross terrain they thought it wasn't feasible for them to cross. It's amazing that someone in a position to do something about was able to intuitively realize what the Japanese would do so that doctrine could be changed to meet it. Their physical training standards would be changed so they could operate on foot with the same level of stamina as the Japanese.
Everything we know about Malaya and why the Japanese won has been compensated for, on land sea, and air so the Japanese can be smashed in a head on clash. As the Japanese move to flank the British their forces will be blocked, and then cut off. There is no learning curve the British know in advance what it took them years to learn in brutal combat. Somehow, they know in advance just how tough Japanese soldiers were, when in the OTL they looked down on them.
I can see this sort of being the case its probably why you don't see sets being put into the field by the IJN and IJA until after 1941/1942, also from a technical stand point you can have a piece of kit that is pretty damned effective but if people don't recognize it then you will be up the river without a paddel so to speak.Hi Belisarius II, Japanese scientists were aware of the potentials of Radar, but I don't think they understood how it was used in the British air defence system in the BoB, nor how much more technically advanced the British, and later Americans were. They were, and are in my timeline, deployment in great secrecy in Malaya.
I did ask about Heenan's role to play ITTL a few months back, with much interest and curiosity at that. If I recall correctly, Coxy stated that he currently remains where his is as things were IOTL, but didn't give away anything else.They had at least 1 British air leason officer passing them intel who was briefed on procedures.
The only chance to defeat ether the Zero or Oscar is to start the fight with an altitude advantage and know where they are at the moment. The Buffalos, and Hurrican IIB had very poor rates of climb. The F2A had a time to 25,000 ft of 35 minutes. Having better radar coverage isn't any assurance that they'd have to time reach altitude. To improve performance the British, and Dutch replaced the 0.50's with .303, cut ammo, armor, and even radios, and used light fuel loads. The F2A had problems with fuel starvation over 15,000 feet. The Hurrican IIB was much better, but still not very fast. Both can take on the Ki-27 Nate.And the Hurricanes/Buffalos wont be facing Zeros in Malaya.
Zeros were Navy, and Malaya was an Army campaign.
I believe mostly KI-27 Nate (OTL 138 of these) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-27 290mph, 1hmg, 2lmg.
And Ki-43 Oscar (OTL 35 of these). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ki-43_Hayabusa 330mph, at most 2hmg.
The Oscars were the latest army fighters, and if the production numbers in wikipedia are about right, they didn't have many more than that to send.
It is possible that in TTL imperial fighters might outnumber Japanese, and be faster, better armed, and better protected.
Zero is interesting to look at as well as the Oscar problem with any research with the Zero you need to be careful with some of the information surrounding it since it can get the same treatment as the Mk1 Spitfire where it gets blown out of proportion.The only chance to defeat ether the Zero or Oscar is to start the fight with an altitude advantage and know where they are at the moment. The Buffalos, and Hurrican IIB had very poor rates of climb. The F2A had a time to 25,000 ft of 35 minutes. Having better radar coverage isn't any assurance that they'd have to time reach altitude. To improve performance the British, and Dutch replaced the 0.50's with .303, cut ammo, armor, and even radios, and used light fuel loads. The F2A had problems with fuel starvation over 15,000 feet. The Hurrican IIB was much better, but still not very fast. Both can take on the Ki-27 Nate.
Sure, no fighter is invincible, but in a turning, or climbing contest it was tough to beat. Are you saying the Spitfire Mk I was overhyped? The RAF claims are heavily exaggerated in the BoB. On one day they claimed they shootdown 175 German aircraft. The real number was I think 75 on the worst day of the battle. Hard to understand when most of the enemy aircraft were crashing in England. Just count the wrecks.Zero is interesting to look at as well as the Oscar problem with any research with the Zero you need to be careful with some of the information surrounding it since it can get the same treatment as the Mk1 Spitfire where it gets blown out of proportion.