Mary of Burgundy could marry Louis XI's younger brother Charles (they even received papal dispensation, but Charles died in 1472), who'd inherit French throne after Charles VIII if he outlives him
France gets Burgundian Inheritance, what now?
- Thread starter Kurd Gossemer
- Start date
It depends upon the definition. 😉
“Burgundy” in this context may mean different things:
- The Duchy of Burgundy - valuable but nothing really special. Rights of the French crown to it, after Charles’ death were not under disputation.
- Burgundian state - the Duchy plus Artois, Flanders, Luxembourg, Hainault, the county palatine of Burgundy (Franche-Comté), and other lands obtained through marriage. These additions (at least some of them) were extremely valuable. Some of them were, at least in formally, vassals of France but some belonged to the HRE. Even the “French” parts were not uniformly eager to join the Kingdom of France and even as a part of the Burgundian state tried to preserve their numerous liberties.
What the winner could get depended upon how strong he was. The Valois dukes, IIRC, had agreements with each of these entities but not an uniform taxation of all territories and even in the Duchy Charles had the estates to vote for a grant needed for his military expenses. Quite possible that similar situation existed elsewhere. Plus probably there were some payments to which the ruler was entitled. A later attempt by the Duke of Alba to enforce a standard sale tax was one of the triggers to the well-known misunderstanding with the Spanish crown.
But, anyway, the sums obtained were seemingly huge: the Burgundian court was considered the richest in Europe.
“The Valois dukes consolidated the richest fiscal apparatus in France, generating a huge revenue above all from their Northern holdings. Between 1379 and 1384 when Philippe relied on revenues from the Burgundian heartland his annual revenue was around 140,000 livre turnoi from his ducal lands and taxes. With the addition of Flanders revenues soared, to 270,000 in 1395 and 696000 in 1402-3, with the vast majority coming from Artois and Flanders. p. 108-109. This made him by far the richest prince in France.” https://adamtooze.com/2017/05/31/me...es consolidated the,his ducal lands and taxes.
Later:
“The ordinary expenditure for the household and the salaries exceeded 400,000 livres a year. The ordinary budget of the war treasurer amounted to 800,000 livres, the extraordinary budget as a rule to 160,000 livres. The argentier, who had to defray the cost of the legations and journeys, as well as the necessary gifts and the wardrobe, spent at least 200,000 livres a year.” http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/arth214_folder/burgundian_court_cartell.html
But http://markgreengrass.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Appendix-23.pdf gives data for Charles V and breakdown is quite interesting. The Netherlands were giving much less in taxes than Castile or Naples but much more in the subsidies.
As Alex said it best, the lands were EXTREMELY profitable, especially Flanders(due to the Wool trade with England and it's Port on Antwerp) and Zeeland and Holland given both the several merchant cities in those areas who had trade everywhere as well as the proto industries to support such cities, no wonder that area was a pioneer in early capitalism.
First, thank you so much for the detailed answer
You absolutely didnt have to do so much, though knowing you I expected nothing less
As for the numbers, I went with the bigger ones - 696000(nice) & 800000 - and according to a quick Google search a livre was about a pound of silver(no clue if that was a stable value) which is approximately half a kg, so I put that data on a currency converter and hold & behold thats the result I got
- $296,717,954.05
- $341,055,119.60
Sounds like a pretty good gain alright
But I'll leave the accuracy of that up to you
Indeed, now imagine the Kings of France earning that alongside their usual income, not to mention all the possible taxes on population, internal trade, agriculture, etc... That's a load of money to be used, either on Mercenaries or exploration or even just centralizing the country even harderFirst, thank you so much for the detailed answer
You absolutely didnt have to do so much, though knowing you I expected nothing less
As for the numbers, I went with the bigger ones - 696000(nice) & 800000 - and according to a quick Google search a livre was about a pound of silver(no clue if that was a stable value) which is approximately half a kg, so I put that data on a currency converter and hold & behold thats the result I got
- $296,717,954.05
- $341,055,119.60
Sounds like a pretty good gain alright
But I'll leave the accuracy of that up to you
Thanks. I’m completely trusting your calculations. My main purpose was to show a relative value of the components and underscore that, within the existing framework, the taxes from the Low Lands were relatively small but the rulers could ask (and get) much greater amounts with the agreement of local Estates.First, thank you so much for the detailed answer
You absolutely didnt have to do so much, though knowing you I expected nothing less
As for the numbers, I went with the bigger ones - 696000(nice) & 800000 - and according to a quick Google search a livre was about a pound of silver(no clue if that was a stable value) which is approximately half a kg, so I put that data on a currency converter and hold & behold thats the result I got
- $296,717,954.05
- $341,055,119.60
Sounds like a pretty good gain alright
But I'll leave the accuracy of that up to you
The real differences with Otl of this enormous success of French foreign diplomacy will depend solely on Paris' ability to integrate and maintain the new Burgundian possessions within it in the shortest possible time, knowing that rivals will not stand still and watch ( in particular Iberian kingdoms, Papacy and Empire ) especially considering that the annexation of Burgundy will bring huge revenues into the royal treasury ( on a par with governing one of the main Italian states ) and also a surplus of manpower ( about 1.4 million more people, which if added to 20 / 16 millions who already live under the Parisian government ( 1 ), will make the position of aspiring hegemon of France much easier than in Otl ) if we consider that the French had actively intervened in Italy during the Lombard wars of 1423 - 1454, and possessed Asti ( albeit through proxy of the Orleans ) I can easily see them aiming to intervene again in the region with ambitions of conquest, but the Rhine would also be a more than legitimate objective ( after all they have already pushed into the region several times, even recently in the 1430s and obviously the Capetians have notoriously ambitious ambitions imperial, given that they ran for election to the HRE several times before Francis I's attempt in 1519, but this time they might have more chances to their advantage ) to conclude I can see Lorraine being annexed well in advance, given that it would now find itself surrounded on 3 sides by King possessions and with much weakened assistance compared to Otl, he will not realistically be able to oppose the French armies, probably France in case it fails to achieve success in future imperial elections , he will try to support a candidate who is less belligerent towards him and with whom he has fewer conflicts of interest ( so I hardly see the Habsburgs succeeding in maintaining the throne, it is easier to see the Valois supporting a Wettin / Hohenzollern / Welf as an aspiring HRE, given that unlike the Austrians and Bavarians, they have no real interest or ability to project their influence along the Rhine or across the Alps ) furthermore this also avoids the subsequent war campaigns of Otl, which for decades devastated the eastern and southern provinces of France (and which on some occasions threatened Paris itself) in particular the Habsburg - Valois conflict which in this scenario will see the Rhineland as the front main part of the conflict ( instead of the Burgundian possessions in Otl ) in addition obviously to Italy, this could lead to a better organizational capacity in gathering resources ( human and otherwise ) to be used in future conflicts
1 ) which already represented 1/5 of the total population of Europe in this Age
@Kellan Sullivan @isabella
Last edited:
you are certainly right, but perhaps it is the vague localism feeling that is in me that speaks, but where do you put Medieval and Renaissance Italy ?, as far as I know, proto capitalism developed and subsequently asserted itself in Italian cities ( whether early or to contemporary what was happening in the same time in Flanders, it does not matter ) and then be exported to the rest of the continent
Last edited: