XXth C: Discussion Thread

It really depends how far Root goes. If the Democrats can take the Progressives, they're gonna go for it. LaFolletes popularity would be completely different in this TL. Remember at this point the entire nation is considerably different.

LaFollete would carry the upper mid-west. Also, on the terms of making a more interesting TL, he would definately spice things up.
 

Glen

Moderator
reformer said:
Killing off people or having them live is very convinient, but I think we're kinda abusing it.

I did state a warning about that. We can have some, however. Diseases are hit and miss, and so are assassins.

I've sudgested a way to have the war work without having to kill him off. Slightly more unique. I mean, either way works, but we'eve been playing the dead/alive card alot.

How is having a bombing that, to the best of my knowledge, never happened or was attempted IOTL, occur 5 months from the POD with no prior changes, better than having someone with known Malaria have a lethal attack of it? They both have Funston die.

As of now, Funston's death by Malaria is part of the timeline. We can't keep revisiting things all the time. I gave 2 days for comments on that item. But we will keep an eye on how many people we're killing/saving.
 
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Glen

Moderator
We still need to decide if it will be a Columbia or Nicaragua Canal. What do y'all think?
 
Nicaragau. It spare us one more contry to deal with, and gunboat diplomacy wouldn't have to come into effect.
 

Glen

Moderator
reformer said:
May 6, 1901: Fillipino rebels sucessfully bomb the American headquarters in Manilla, killing US general Frederick Funston as revenge for the capture of President Aguinaldo.

April 1904: Due to continuing harassement from the railroad industries, and generall corruption in eastern markets against rural communities, the Grange begins to grow in membership again. It encourages a renomination of Bryan, but does not gain enough support due to his two previous losses.

January 1905: A weak anti-trust law is passed. Major corperations quickly find loop holes. The law does not distinguish between board trusts and labor trusts.

March 1905: The Phillipine war does not die down as per OTL due to continued guerilla sucesses. As an attempt to quell the war, Root releases Aguinaldo and attempts to come to some type of formall diplomatic agreement. Root claims to be willing to grant the islands increased autonomy.

June 1905: The Aguinaldo talks fall apart as Root refuses to grant any economic freedom to the Phillipines.

July 1905: (note: many of these events are new, not based on OTL events) Gold, Siver, and Quarry miners organize themselves into a massive strike. A large number are fired on the spot, and are replaced by black or immigrant workers who accept less money and are not allowed to join the union.

October 1905: Aguinaldo resumes command of the Fillipino army. His return greatly enhances moral.

Febuary 1906: In the case Iowa V the Grange, the Supreme Court enforces anti-trust violations on farm syndicates. It is quickly followed by a case that accuses Unions of anti-trust violation. (this type of thing did happen)

May 1907: Root sends two more divisions into the Phillipines.

August 1907: Democrats and Republicans in congress relunctantly come to an agreement abolishing anti-trust laws.

The domestic items have been included into the timeline.

I request that you edit your Philippines materials to be in compliance with the already established timeline (ie, the death of Funston in early March 1901 from Malaria). I would suggest to you that Aguinaldo doesn't get captured in 1901 as in OTL due to this.
 

Glen

Moderator
Othniel said:
Nicaragau. It spare us one more contry to deal with, and gunboat diplomacy wouldn't have to come into effect.

If the canal goes to Colombia (with an o), it won't either. Instead, the McKinley administration would just renegotiate and eventually get the deal, I believe. Therefore no gunboat diplomacy, and no Panama.

I have also some problems with the two suggested entries in competition as currently written.

First, the Nicaragua one is too late. If Nicaragua is to be the choice over Colombia, it will happen a slight bit sooner than the negotiations did IOTL, not later. Basically, the Nicaragua route has to be decided on before the Colombia route lobby can get it changed.

Second, the Colombia one is a bit too early. The first treaty still won't be accepted at first pass by the Colombian Senate. They will need to renegotiate and come back with a second treaty later in the year, I suspect.

I see merits on both sides. A Canal for Colombia might make it more of a power in the region, given its other attributes. But a Nicaragua canal would probably have less political issues for us (just get it done before the lobbyists change people's minds) and would have all the ecological issues with Lake Nicaragua to deal with.
 
Random events. . . a little something I've noticed here is that we're only really using versions of OTL events with a different spin. We're trying to simulate the butterfly effect so we really should be putting in more original material.
 
reformer said:
Random events. . . a little something I've noticed here is that we're only really using versions of OTL events with a different spin. We're trying to simulate the butterfly effect so we really should be putting in more original material.
Little Changes first, big changes happen from little ones.
 
Glen Finney said:
If the canal goes to Colombia (with an o), it won't either. Instead, the McKinley administration would just renegotiate and eventually get the deal, I believe. Therefore no gunboat diplomacy, and no Panama.

I have also some problems with the two suggested entries in competition as currently written.

First, the Nicaragua one is too late. If Nicaragua is to be the choice over Colombia, it will happen a slight bit sooner than the negotiations did IOTL, not later. Basically, the Nicaragua route has to be decided on before the Colombia route lobby can get it changed.

Second, the Colombia one is a bit too early. The first treaty still won't be accepted at first pass by the Colombian Senate. They will need to renegotiate and come back with a second treaty later in the year, I suspect.

I see merits on both sides. A Canal for Colombia might make it more of a power in the region, given its other attributes. But a Nicaragua canal would probably have less political issues for us (just get it done before the lobbyists change people's minds) and would have all the ecological issues with Lake Nicaragua to deal with.
Thne give Nicaragau the Colombian Date...
 
grr. . . I had a nice long post with lots of events, and then my computer shut down and I lost everything. I'll retype. . . I hate retyping. . .
 
April 1901: General James Franklin Bell takes over as military commander in the Philippines. General Arthur MacArthur takes over as military governor. William Howard Taft serves as civilian governor.

1902: Taft begins a series of public work projects designed to help the Filipino people. They are poorly organize, and constantly sabotaged. Aguinaldo begins to fight a guerilla war against the American troops. Bell begins a scorched-earth campaign.

1903: MacArthur puts several of Taft’s programs under military control. Operations begin to run smoothly. MacArthur wins the respect of both Taft and to a certain extent the Filipino people. Revolts die down in northern Luzon where the American presence is concentrated.

June: Aguinaldo travels to the southern islands, where he leads a very widespread resistance far from Manila. He gains almost total political control over the islands.

September: Bell heads south, and brutally puts down much of Aguinaldo’s rebellions. He forces civilians into hamlets and captures and tortures thousands of civilians. He destroys much of the most fertile farmland in the region. The Americans loose popularity especially outside of Luzon, but Aguinaldo is forced into more isolated regions.

April 1905: Aguinaldo returns to Luzon, hoping that MacArthur is less ruthless then Bell. Bell attempts to take control of the campaign to the north. Both MacArthur and Taft appeal to Root requesting that MacArthur be given full command. Bell is put in charge only of operations outside of Luzon. MacArthur runs an efficient operation fighting Aguinaldo while not stopping the programs he and Taft had created. MacArthur receives very good publicity for his operation back home.

August 1906: To solidify power in Manila, MacArthur imposes some small measures such as a curfew. Taft complains to Washington. Root decides that MacArthur is too valuable, and appoints Taft to the Supreme Court partly to get him out of the way.

February 1906: Bell, desperate to regain face, doubles his efforts in the south, forcing many civilians into reconcentration camps and hunting down everyone even rumored to be a rebel. He tries to cover up his war crimes. MacArthur demands that Root be relieved. Root claims that Bell will be closely monitored, but fails to take real action, knowing that Bell actions were quelling the rebellion.

March 1906: Aguinaldo leaks the stories from the south to a British newspaper. Soon news of the atrocities are spread all over the world. Anti-war protests start up all across the countries.

January 1907: A progressive in the war department leaks that Root had refused to take direct action against Bell. MacArthur privately contacts Aguinaldo to discuss a peaceful American pullout.

May 1907: Dissidents in Luzon revolt. They avoid attacking MacArhur’s men on Auguinaldo’s orders. Root orders three more divisions into the Philippines. MacArthur publicly sates that he no longer believes that the war can be won. Root fires him, a unpopular move in the US.

Republican Convention: The Republicans almost unanimously renominate Root. Root decides that a more popular Vice President in needed. Progressive Republican La Follete openly refuses. War hero Admiral Dewey in put on the ticket.

Democrat Convention: Populist William Jennings Bryan, who is supported by both the Progressives, labor, and agriculture, is the clear favorite, nominated by the fourth ballot. Bryan refuses to allow a conservative politician onto the ticket. He proposes several radical progressives that prove to be unpopular in the convention. Senator John Walter Smith, a moderate Progressive who had served as a successful and popular governor of Maryland is eventually named on the ticket. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walter_Smith

As I’ve said before, I think Bryan wins this won, but that’s enough posts for now.
 

Glen

Moderator
DuQuense said:
Been thinking about this while walking the puppies.

1906 Roosevelt Wins Mayor NY.

1908 12 years of repulicans, they are blamed for the ongoing war in the Phillipines, Labor Problems etc.
Bryan is going for his third try, and squeaks by with a- bring our boys home- and- end the Strikes- platform

fall 1909 Roots VP's ecomonic reforms come home, Panic of '09 [OTL '07] Bank Runs. Democrats Blamed for panic, Mayor Roosevelt Shuts City Banks, pledges City Money to back there reopening.

1912 Roosevelt runs for President Against Cabot Lodge - Pledges to [re]establish Third Bank of the US to prevent reacurance of the Panic. wins Nomination

Did you submit these to the draft thread? I'd change Roosevelt to Governor.
 

Glen

Moderator
Wendell said:
Is he having two Republicans square off against each other?:confused:

Wins nomination, as in they were squared off against each other for the Republican nomination....
 
Glen Finney said:
Wins nomination, as in they were squared off against each other for the Republican nomination....
I thought he was assuming that the nomination happened before the square off with HCL. That's what confused me.
 
OK, comments. There is litterally no economically possible way that the panic would happen later in this TL. None. Considering we'eve barily discussed the Bryan presidency, lets wait to decide this. It does seem like we're trying to have history repeat itself. . . its really quite unlikely that Roosevelt would become president after whats been submitted so far. (And I'm not counting the stuff I added a few hours ago)
 

Glen

Moderator
reformer said:
OK, comments. There is litterally no economically possible way that the panic would happen later in this TL. None.

Well, you may be right. However, perhaps the trusts artificially keep the economy limping along for a few years more, but then the panic just can't be forestalled any more.

Considering we've barily discussed the Bryan presidency, lets wait to decide this.

That's fair.

It does seem like we're trying to have history repeat itself. . . its really quite unlikely that Roosevelt would become president after whats been submitted so far. (And I'm not counting the stuff I added a few hours ago)

I still think you are underestimating TR. I'm not saying he will be president, but I would never count him out.
 

Glen

Moderator
After much consideration and reading and agonizing, the winner is....a Nicaragua canal route, supported by a narrow margin in the Senate after a vigorous but failed lobbying effort by fans of a Panama route.
 
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