World War III in May 1946

I hear your suggestions but I'm sticking with the US Joint Chiefs of Staff who estimated and planned on the "satellite" states bringing 85 divisions of 2nd line troops and 850 combat aircraft to the table. Enough in their estimation to take out Greece and Italy if they received no assistance.

Maybe hind sight is twenty twenty but so far all you folks have presented are opinions and I'm sticking with the US JCS until shown otherwise. Sorry. I really have no dog in this fight because when the time comes the Soviets could take out whoever stands in their way.

The JCS estimated in the June 1946 Pincher Series of War plans that the Soviet Army would have over 273 Divisions by D+30 and close to 400 by D+60.

Again the term finlandization comes to mind.

As to the Far East...

On January 8th, 1946 they reported..."Six divisions in Japan and Korea would be less than fifty percent combat ready and four division strategic reserve in the United States would have no effectiveness what so ever."

Apparently some of you have no idea how fast the US and Britain demobilized even in the face of the Soviet threat. It was fast, huge and unstoppable politically. Between VJ day and May 1946 there was just nothing left to resist a possible Soviet attack.

Now what the West does about it is the real story here.
 
Soviet Report May 20, 1946

Things are going well Maior. They die like flies without their air cover. Our numbers out weight their numbers. Maybe Rubin is right and the key is air-power.

Keep pushing them and capture as many supplies as we can. Leave a guard behind at the depots along with an anti-aircraft unit. We need those supplies both for us and for the others back home. We need strong factory workers to make the bullets we are putting into American and English bodies.

Our losses have been minimal and very acceptable. It will take them months to get any kind of forces from the US to try and stop us. We must keep pressing them. We have to take the ports on the channel and prevent another Dunkirk. We will not hesitate like the Nazis. We will drive them into the sea. The plan is to by-pass Paris and make a turn for the coast to trap them.

We have to keep in contact with them and cannot let them separate otherwise they will not hesitate to use their strategic bombers like they did on the Nazi pigs. They don't have the stomach to sacrifice their own people even if it means defeat.

Don't worry Marshal we shall say in their back pocket while sticking our finger up their ass. So far we have no need of artillery parks. Our tanks are so superior that the only thing slowing us down is finding fuel and the newer models breaking down. So far the imperialists cannot outrun us. We will use bikes if we have to comrade they will not separate from us.

Besides the only bombers in position are the British Lancasters and Lincolns and we have a few surprises should they try to bomb during the day like the Americans. Even our old fighters can give them a hard time just wait until they meet the newest generation. Thanks to our German "guests" we have some very interesting wonder weapons of our own.
 
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well, interesting , but keep in mind that thousands of soldiers , even if they were demobilized , they didnt forget how to fight, so reenstate the Draft , and so many divisions will be Battle ready pretty soon. :)
 
Hairog,

http://docs.nrdc.org/nuclear/files/nuc_86010002a_56b.pdf

That website reports that by 1950 the United States had 700 nuclear warheads. Now by killing the atomic scientists like you have done, would create a setback and you set that timetable at six months. Even if there was a six month setback, the United States would still have 616 warheads by 1950.

You get that number by dividing 700 by 48 months (four years, assuming you start in 1946) which gives you 14 which is the total of number of warheads produced in a month. The six month setback multiplied by 14 equals out to be 84, you take the 700 minus the 84 (caused by your six month setback) and you get 616.

But let's take this a step further, let's say that in your timeline the production rate decrase by half due to scientists being killed and internal investigations slowing production down. So the USA would be turning out seven warheads per month. 7 bombs multiplied by 42 months (again using six month setback) equals out to be 294 warheads by 1950.

Now let's go yet another step and say that the 14 warheads per month average, is inflated due to increased production methods in 1949 and 1950. So let's say that the USA was only able to produce 4 warheads a month starting out in 1946. Assuming six-month setback that is 24 warheads in 1946, and 48 in 1947. I still believe that those numbers are high enough to allow US forces to nuke their way across Russia from the Pacific or British bases in the Mid-East or India.

Now giving that air superiority is in question in Europe for the USA and its allies during this TL, what would prevent the USA from nuking their way across Russia from the Pacific? Or even from using British bases in the Mid-East or India to speed up matters?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/72.pdf (memo speaking of how many bombs would be ready month to month. also contains readiness issues and shipping issues).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.png
graph with estimated stockpiles from 1945 to 2005.



 
Say WHAT!?!?

They were producing them at a rate of about 1/month since production started. I see a figure saying

Hmm... I thought it was higher than 9 actually.

Chessfiend: I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything but I would appreciate it if you would read all the posts up to this point. This was dealt with a while ago. All your calculations are very well done but the fact remains that we had 9 Mark III Fat Boys on hand in June 1946 and no more.

Two were on their way to be exploded at Bikini Atoll in July, 1946 that leaves 7 total on the mainland US in June, 1946. No math needed that is what we had. There are any number of sources to confirm this: David A. Rosenberg. "US Stockpile 1945 - 1950" in Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Vol.38, No.5, May, 1982 P. 26 and many other places.

There are a number of reasons from the shutting down of reactors to low plutonium production to scientists going back to civilian life etc. The fact remains that we had 7.

Our story starts in December. The assembly teams have been decimated. These are highly trained personnel. So I'm saying that we had 4 ready to go because of these problems.

Then there is the fact of the only 2 assembly pits. One in the US (I still don't know where) and one in Okinawa. From what I can gather these were no ordinary pits and took a long time to construct otherwise I would assume that they would have been one in England etc. But there weren't. Just two in May 1946.

Then we have the fact that there were only 12 Crews available to fly the Silver B29 and they were of dubious quality due to lack of practise. General Curtis LeMay later said that in 1948 there was not a single one of his crews was able to do a professional job: Borowski, op. cit. pp, 103, 166-167.

What this all boils down to is that contrary to popular belief in 1946 the Abomb was very hard to use, clumsy and we had very few of them and virtually no way to deliver them to Russian soil effectively and Stalin knows it.

That's what makes this timeline so fun. If Stalin was going to attack this was his window of opportunity and in this story he takes it. No simple "nuking their way across Russia from the Pacific? Or even from using British bases in the Mid-East or India to speed up matters?"

No...we have a real fight on our hands here. Don't forget Sergo Peshkov. I haven't. ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnAseTiQG1g
 
And since there is no chance of Stalin taking out the UK, let alone the US, sp what happens in a year or so when the US nukes Moscow and Leningrad and whatever remnant of the Soviet government survives sues for peace.

Not to mention this continues a common failing in such threads, of the Red Air Force's consistent ineffectiveness in WWII somehow being reversed and against a much more formidable opponent than Nazi Germany.

The reason the number of atomic weapons was so low was that the US made a deliberate decision which, when reversed by Truman in late 1947, led to an arsenal of 400 by the time Stalin had his first nuclear test. When Truman reverses the decision 18 months sooner we now find the US with a nuclear arsenal in the hundreds a year or more before Stalin has even that test, a very bad position to be in.
 
Hairog,

http://docs.nrdc.org/nuclear/files/nuc_86010002a_56b.pdf

That website reports that by 1950 the United States had 700 nuclear warheads. Now by killing the atomic scientists like you have done, would create a setback and you set that timetable at six months. Even if there was a six month setback, the United States would still have 616 warheads by 1950.

You get that number by dividing 700 by 48 months (four years, assuming you start in 1946) which gives you 14 which is the total of number of warheads produced in a month. The six month setback multiplied by 14 equals out to be 84, you take the 700 minus the 84 (caused by your six month setback) and you get 616.

The war breaks out in May 1946, not May 1949.
 
A few comments...

You have quoted the JCS report twice, and while I certainly think that was relevant (they are, after all, the authorities on the subject), note that they are citing the number of DIVISIONS available, not the manpower available. Soviet divisions by 1945 were getting very thin in terms of manpower, particularly in terms of rifleman on the line. Given their losses from 1941-1944 (to say nothing of the bloodletting in Berlin in 1945), this is hardly surprising, and the significant number of Central Asian divisions (which Stalin did not trust) in the front lines by 1945, it isn't hard to see that the bottom of the barrel, if not being scraped, was at least being bumped up against. Keep in mind that the JCS was in the business of threat inflation, and their history of predicting the nature of their opponents (manpower resources, etc.) was not exactly without flaw...

You mention the capture by the Soviet armies or large quantities of military resources as both a basis for the war, as well as a way to sustain it. Given the very high quality of your other work, it is disturbing to see this rather naive comment. Large quantities of strategic materials (Soviet industry was heavily dependent on outside sources for many of these in 1945) are not lying around in depots in Western Europe, and after current stocks were exhausted, there would be big problems. As for military material, this isn't a war game where you capture supply points...the Soviets would have captured massive amounts of ammo that they couldn't use, heavy vehicles far inferior to their own (unless you see them switching from T-34s to Shermans?) and that most of their crews weren't trained to use, and a substantial number of entirely secondary resources that might be more help than a hinderance (troops leaving an advance to loot was a big problem in Germany during their advance in 1945). Even the things that they could use (trucks, fuel, and food) while useful, were not entirely fungible, and the number of trucks in particular wasn't nearly sufficient to resolve the big logistical issues that any Red Army advance was going to face. Railheads weren't going to magically appear (and trucks are not a solution to that problem), and the rest of the Soviet logistical network simply wouldn't be able to sustain constant advances. They couldn't do it in 1945 when they were much closer to their logistics net, they weren't going to have an easier time doing it through the blasted remains of Germany in 1946, especially when they had done little or nothing to extend their network.

I note almost no response to comments made regarding 'back door' attacks against the Soviet Union. The Pacific is quite vulnerable, but so is the far north, which would certianly put a crimp in your plans for Sweden. This is an area where the USN and the Royal Navy would be able to make their power felt, and the USN did have a history of 'demonstration raids'. These would not be decisive in and of themselves, but they certainly would have had the effect of tying down some of the Red Army and keeping Stalin looking over his shoulder.

As for nukes, you assume that the 'Fat Man' type weapons (Plutonium) were the only way to go, and that even in a wartime situation we would have kept building them no matter what. There is a HUGE difference between a 1946 where the US was at peace and a 1946 when the US was in an war with an enemy like the USSR, and pretending that there would be no changes is simply disengenous on your part. At the very least, 'gun-type' (Uranium) bombs would have been pressed into service quickly enough, and these were both lighter and much quicker to build. LeMay's comments regarding the silver B-29s (soon B-32s, and B-36s, though not yet) are well taken, but once again, wartime expedients (especially when we are LOSING...something that tends to clarify one's mind a great deal, and causes all kinds of expedients to be examined) would probably make that issue nugatory.

With regards to allies, the JCS notwithstanding, any supposition that the Soviets were going to have 85 divisions available from their allies is delusional. At the very best, it is possible that they (the allies) might not be a net drain on Soviet resources in 1946 (now 1948 or later is another matter) in terms of garrisons, etc. Since these allies lie directly athwart any conceivable lines of supply for the Soviets, there are limits to how aggressively the Soviets can conscript here, even if they were willing to try that.

I don't find it difficult to imagine a Soviet advance to the Rhine (in somewhat jerky stages) along with some aggressive use of intelligence assets to disrupt Western operations outside of the european mainland and of course France, where the communists would be doing everything they could to sabotage Western operations. Your analysis of air operations strikes me as spot-on for a short time at least (about 3-6 months, till aircraft arrive in quantity in the UK and Western France/Spain), but unless Stalin is willing to settle for that, the party will end for him shortly thereafter. The American military will take time to reassemble, but the dangerous parts (air power) will reconstitute more quickly than the rest, and while it may be insufficient to stop a ground assault at first, the Red Army logistical network will be hellishly vulnerable.

As for nukes being difficult to use tactically, this is a debateable point, and one that is by no means certain. Given the likelihood that just about ANYTHING might have been tried (wartime, after all), it isn't hard to imagine using 1 or 2 nukes on Front-level command/supply complexes, or large bodies of troops. The strung out nature of supply for the Soviets means that there would almost have to be vulnerable nodes, and this is the sort of thing that the West was VERY good at exploiting. Do I see air raids on Moscow in 1946? Not likely...but that wouldn't be decisive in any event. Stop the Soviets at the Rhine (likely) and the rest will come with time as the Western military gets back online.
 
Hairog,
I wouldnt get bogged down in specifics and thinking about every criticism. Just write and have fun.

BTW, helicopters did see some limited use in 1945 so they could be brought into this. maybe as a troop shuttle or to evacuate downed pilots.

And didn't the Russians lead the world in helicopter technology?
 
Hairog,
I wouldnt get bogged down in specifics and thinking about every criticism. Just write and have fun.

BTW, helicopters did see some limited use in 1945 so they could be brought into this. maybe as a troop shuttle or to evacuate downed pilots.

And didn't the Russians lead the world in helicopter technology?

Sounds good. More tonight.
 
Reds Across the Rhine

Soviet Pravda reports that Red Army units have crossed the Rhine in 3 locations.
By Rex Lemond
UPI
June 2nd, 1946

In an unusual communique the Soviet Government announced that it's units have crossed the vaunted Rhine River in West Germany. This was supposed to be where the newly minted NATO forces stopped the Red Armies units. It's width, old defensive works and lack of bridges where supposed to be insurmountable. It was thought that the Red Armies lack of amphibious assault equipment and expertise would make the Rhine a natural defensive line the would stop the Reds in their tracks.

According to Soviet sources this has not been the case and they claim to have found numerous bridges intact all along the river. It has been rumored that the speed of the Red Army's advance coupled with conflicting orders have led to at least 3 bridges not being destroyed. Two of these bridges were the temporary bridges ironically constructed by the US Army along with over 60 others.

"We just didn't have the manpower or communications to get the job done." stated a Major who would not identify himself. Reports pour in of Soviet tanks lined up like "on parade" crossing the Rhine.

The Soviet leaderships stated goal of preventing the B29 Super Fortress bomber from being based in Western Germany has long since been shown to be an excuse for the blatant conquest of Western Europe. The base was overrun the fist day of the surprise attack and yet the Red Army has continued to slaughter innocent non-combatants in it's quest for what appears to be world dominance.
 

loughery111

Banned
Well... this is thoroughly unpleasant.

I'm guessing the general outline goes something like this: Soviets make it almost to the Channel before US and UK manage to mobilize enough troops to halt them with the aid of tactical deployment of currently existing nuclear warheads (this deployment is easily possible once we remobilize the Air Force in any numbers). Meanwhile, the Germans and French are making their lines of supply sheer hell. The US nuclear program gets knocked back but kicks into overdrive with an effectively unlimited budget, the B-47 is rushed into service a few years early, and then we turn every major Soviet city within range of Japan, India, or the UK into volcanic glass and present an unconditional surrender demand. It would have been hard to actually lose this war when we do have nukes and can quickly get the technology to deploy them on the strategic level, and they have neither ability and will not for at least three years.

I'll have to wait to see whether I'm right or not, though. Good work so far!
 
Does anyone know when that Nazi superguy Skorzeny died? He would be nice to have on our side.

I think the Rhine would only be a delaying measure. A better place to stop the Russians would be at the Seine which is closer to American air bases and could be defended better. The Seine also is on the eastern border of Normandy where I'm guessing the allies will truly make their stand. Hopefully the allies are stringing barbed wire and setting up landmines and tank traps like crazy all over that area.

Incidentally, and I hope the author doesnt get mad at me for stealing ideas, he said the Soviets were wanting to bypass Paris. The thing about France is to control the country the government had all the roads and railroads going thru Paris so this will actually lead to a limited number of good roads for them to use and be easier for the allies to block them.

Oh, and I'm waiting to hear the reports of the first partisan activity in Poland.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
Does anyone know when that Nazi superguy Skorzeny died? He would be nice to have on our side.

I think the Rhine would only be a delaying measure. A better place to stop the Russians would be at the Seine which is closer to American air bases and could be defended better. The Seine also is on the eastern border of Normandy where I'm guessing the allies will truly make their stand. Hopefully the allies are stringing barbed wire and setting up landmines and tank traps like crazy all over that area.

Incidentally, and I hope the author doesnt get mad at me for stealing ideas, he said the Soviets were wanting to bypass Paris. The thing about France is to control the country the government had all the roads and railroads going thru Paris so this will actually lead to a limited number of good roads for them to use and be easier for the allies to block them.

Oh, and I'm waiting to hear the reports of the first partisan activity in Poland.
There are a lot of conspiracy theories concerning Skorzeny, but it is generally accepted that he died in Madrid Spain in 1975 of cancer.

At this time, he'd be in the custody of the Occupation government in Germany.
 
Capitalist Exploit German Workers

Capitalist Exploit German Workers
Victorious Red Army units find slave labor camps
Pravda
June 3rd, 1946

Units of the 3rd Shock Army liberated a slave labor camp outside of Urmitz, United Germany. Rumors of Capitalist atrocities and the exploitation of European workers have been shown to be true. The camp was filled with "starving wretches chained to Yankee and Limey machines of profit." according to the disgusted liberators. We must push on and free the workers of the world from such cruel depredations perpetrated for profit.

Even the most uneducated among us can understand what has happened and how the cruel Capitalist pigs have used war to further their thirst for power and gold. Workers of the world must unite with the Soviet government and Red Army to throw off the yoke of exploitation.

We urge the unwitting stooges and lackeys of the Capitalism to lay down their arms and join us in a glorious workers revolt against your oppressors
Workers of the world unite!
 
yeap, cant ardly see Nukes employed to Stop the soviets , and the nuking of some Soviets Cities , And the demand of Total surrender.:)
 
Oh, and I'm waiting to hear the reports of the first partisan activity in Poland.

Especially since not only the Red Army have left Poland, Rumania, Bulgaria, the baltic states etc to invade the West, but also brought the "native" troops that are most loyal to Soviet with them. In Poland, Rumania, Bulgaria, the baltic states etc the anti-communists/nationalists/former resistance fighters that didn't like the Soviet takeover are now in a majority.

By spring 1946 there was a big and active resistance against the Soviets in all three baltic countries. The ukrainans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army) were still fighting. Remove both the Red Army and NKVD (which would be needed to both control the Army and purge capitalists in the liberated areas) and revolts would erupt in each village.

Fairly soon the West will start sending SOE/SAS/OSS instructors to get the partisans more effective. So what if 75% fails - there are not so many railroads that can supply the Red Army. Or airfields that houses the Red Airforces aircrafts.
 
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