Western intel had spotted the MiG-21 prototypes as early as 1956, and while precise performance wasn’t known at the time it was obviously going to be better than the MiG-19.
WI West Germany buys the EE Lighting and not the F-104?
- Thread starter tallthinkev
- Start date
If you don't want the Luftwaffe to have as many coffins, then equip it with Canadian pilots. The Canadian pilots were able to master the Starfighter.
Training for the new Luftwaffe wasn't all it should have been, not helped by the 10 years between the end of WWII and its reformation costing them a decade learning how to operate jets.
Considering the Lightning and Drakon used the same engine, an afterburning Avon, engines aren't going to be a problem.
The Drakon was also offered with the same AIRPASS combat systems as the Lightning, so even if the Saab wins, the UK will still get a chunk of the cash despite the loss.
The Drakon was also offered with the same AIRPASS combat systems as the Lightning, so even if the Saab wins, the UK will still get a chunk of the cash despite the loss.
When I arrived in Germany in 1978, the standing joke was if you wanted a used Starfighter, buy a farm and wait for one to crash. But as I spoke to knowledgeable Germans the basic issue was the mass expansion of the Luftwaffe ensured too many short-term conscripts were in key maintenance positions. As long-term personnel were trained and experience acquired, the number of losses diminished until on par with other F-104 operators. There was a cost to doing business.
One effect would be if the EE Lightning (or any other aircraft) had been chosen instead of the Starfighter, that aircraft's reputation would've been tarnished by the Luftwaffe.
Ramontxo
Donor
Yes but Marcel Bloch changed his name for the Nom de Guerre of his brother. And specifically never sold an aeroplane to Germany
Even the bribery, whilst contemptible, probably doesn't deserve as much blame as it gets. The F-104 was probably about as good an aircraft as existed in NATO for the German requirement at the time. It was just a very challenging requirement, and there were shortcomings with German pilot training.
Unless you've got no sense of self-preservation, you don't take a bribe to tip the scales in favour of something totally unsuitable. You convince yourself that the difference between Competitor A and Competitor B really isn't that much, they could both do the job well enough, so it doesn't really matter which one you pick... but Competitor A is offering you a nicely stuffed brown paper envelope. If you're properly corrupt, you then go to Competitor B and point out that it's a really finely balanced competition.... then, once you've got two fat wads of cash, make the decision you'd have made in the first place.
The Saudi air force used the Lightning for air-ground, with 2 30mm cannon, bombs and rockets, but can't find any data on how well (or not) that worked.
Did the relative lack of priority for deep upgrades contribute to poor maintainability?
Riain
Banned
This was at the very start, as Hunter sqns converted to Lightnings in 1960. The promise was that the highly complex, highly capable Lightning would be no harder to maintain than the simple Hunter day fighter which on the face of it sounds ludicrous but apparently it was believed.
Yes
Makes me think the specification was wrong (or over ambitious). Perhaps the West Germans should have been thinking of 2 or 3 separate aircraft?
Buccaneer for maritime and tactical nuclear strike roles.
F-104A or uprated (as Canadian?) for the interceptor role. (Lightning probably too expensive and too late)
And an interim order of F-100s to train ground crew and pilots on advanced jets. They could later supplement the Fiat G91s in ground attack
Hah 😀
No idea, tbh, but the Saudis had 3 squadrons. I doubt they'd get enough exRAF for that...
The EE Lightening was the ultimate point interceptor. It was even less well suited to be adapted to a fighter bomber than the Starfighter.
Neither aircraft should ever have been flown under 2,000 feet altitude except while taking off or landing.
Riain
Banned
Both, the RSAF had a comprehensive contract with a company called Airwork Services which provided everything from aircraft maintenance to airfield operation, air traffic control and pilot training up to leadership in combat missions. These training pilots were ex RAF.
Right let's say they do go with the Lighting just as a fighter, that leaves ground attack, what do they go for? They weren't overly keen on the Fiat G-91 OTL would they even go for this time round. The Douglas A-4 seems a good fit, sold well overseas and another customer wouldn't be a bad thing.
By the mid to late 60's Germany would have the Lighting, A-4 and Buccaneer as front line combat aircraft?
By the mid to late 60's Germany would have the Lighting, A-4 and Buccaneer as front line combat aircraft?
Well, the Buccaneer would likely fill the low level high speed attack mission incredibly well and it would also be a good fit for the reconnaissance role that was later filled by the RF-4E. It wouldn't be hard to develop a camera pack to fit in the bomb bay and the belly bulge would likely be able to accommodate the side looking radar easily enough.