WI: Weimar Republic never happens, Germany becomes a CM?

[Zioneer]

What if, after WW1, the German Empire was treated with a little more kindness then in.. What's the word, OTL?

If, instead of forcing Germany to become the Wiemar Republic, the various victorious powers of WWI instead changed Germany to a constitutional Monarchy, like Great Britain. If, out of kindness, one or two of the victors gives Germany a small amount of money, not intending to get it back, and perhaps gives Germany a technology or two?

What would happen then? Obviously, Nazism would be weakened, but if a different Treaty of Versailles could happen, how could it happen, and what would be the consequences?

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

If, instead of forcing Germany to become the Wiemar Republic, the various victorious powers of WWI instead changed Germany to a constitutional Monarchy, like Great Britain.

The German Empire was a constitutional monarchy

If, out of kindness, one or two of the victors gives Germany a small amount of money, not intending to get it back, and perhaps gives Germany a technology or two?

I do not any victorious powers being nice to Germany with good reasons.
They had lost much and Germany would be too powerful.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

Also, the Weimar Revolution was a result of internal politics within Germany stemming directly from of Germany's collapse in late 1918, not something imposed by the Entente.

Nobody is going to give Germany any money or support after all the effort that went into defeating them in the first place unless the political situation post-WWI is significantly from OTL.

 

[Kome]

If, out of kindness, one or two of the victors gives Germany a small amount of money, not intending to get it back, and perhaps gives Germany a technology or two?

Wasn't that the problem in the 1st place? Germany couldn't pay its war debts so they had to borrow money from America. And France and Britain couldn't pay their war debt so they had to take money from Germany, which were American loans. So if the USA cancels all debts the Europeans owe them (about $10 billion) then its all good. Of course than you got a bunch of investors in the USA pissed off but hey the debt is gone.

 

[Lord Roem]

The German Empire was a constitutional monarchy.

Technically yes, but in many respects it did have many of the hallmarks of at least a semi-absolute monarchy.

• The Chancellor was appointed by and only accountable to, the Kaiser, not the Reichstag
• Wilhelm II played a major role in foreign and domestic policy until the start of the July Crisis
• While Hindenburg and Ludendorff's military dictatorship sidelined the monarchy, Wilhelm, indeed, the monarchies as a whole, were seen as the key architects of the war and Germany's defeat as was the case in Russia, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire

Thus, to claim that Germany was a Constitutional Monarchy is not really accurate. For the monarchy to survive, Wilhelm would have to abdicate sooner and be replaced by a more liberal-minded monarch (maybe even someone from outside the House of Hohenzollern) who would have to take an active role in the peace settlement to avoid the "Revolution from Above" which the establishment used to prevent a general workers uprising.

 

[Typo]

perhaps gives Germany a technology or two?

This isn't civ

 

[Jimbrock]

This isn't civ

I was gonna say that!

Possibly, to make a German CM,you could have the germans have a little more land and power, and more volontarily accept the armissitce.

Jim

 

[MNP]

Wasn't that the problem in the 1st place? Germany couldn't pay its war debts so they had to borrow money from America. And France and Britain couldn't pay their war debt so they had to take money from Germany, which were American loans. So if the USA cancels all debts the Europeans owe them (about $10 billion) then its all good. Of course than you got a bunch of investors in the USA pissed off but hey the debt is gone.

Didn't France offer to do that, but because then US loans (made by private banks) wouldn't be paid by France it was nixed contributing mightily to the causes of WW2?

Way to be, bankers, way to be.

 

[New Yorker]

Well, the constitution was changed in October 1918 to make the Chancellor accountable to the Reichstag not the Kaiser.

Ebert, the first president, was a monarchist, right? The republic only came about because the more leftist elements in the SPD just announced it. I often wonder if the Kaiser had gone back to Berlin could he have prevented the fall of the monarchy by making major concessions, including, most likely, his own departure.

 

[chris N]

If the British and French had not applied pressure then there was a good chance that Germany might have remained a monarchy. The war was as much the fault of France, Britain and Serbia (Serbia more than any of them) as well as Germany. But the victorious allies didn't want to take any responsibility for the war having come about.

 

[Kome]

Didn't France offer to do that

Way to be, bankers, way to be.

To do what cancel the debt? Yeah almost EVERY one wanted to cancel the debt, but America was a dick or couldn't piss off its banks and investors (depending on who you ask).
When France and the UK found out that Germany didnt have any money to give them after France invaded Germany during the interwar period, they asked the US to cancel the debt that the entente had, then they would have canceled Germany's.


A POD for no Wiemar is that Germany is allowed to keep a relatively strong army but still has to pay insane war debt, so when the frog eaters invade the Ruhr they are faced by the German army which defeats the France occupation, France is shamed at the world stage and decides to cancel the war debt to avoid another war. The people of Germany get all patriotic and unite together. Unlikely but its better than WW2 right?

 

[Lord Insane]

Ebert, the first president, was a monarchist, right? The republic only came about because the more leftist elements in the SPD just announced it.

And they were to a large degree motivated by a fear of the proto-Communists declaring a Workers' Republic, and went ahead to pre-empt that with a Republic (by a few hours).

Technically yes, but in many respects it did have many of the hallmarks of at least a semi-absolute monarchy.

• The Chancellor was appointed by and only accountable to, the Kaiser, not the Reichstag
• Wilhelm II played a major role in foreign and domestic policy until the start of the July Crisis
• While Hindenburg and Ludendorff's military dictatorship sidelined the monarchy, Wilhelm, indeed, the monarchies as a whole, were seen as the key architects of the war and Germany's defeat as was the case in Russia, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire

Thus, to claim that Germany was a Constitutional Monarchy is not really accurate. For the monarchy to survive, Wilhelm would have to abdicate sooner and be replaced by a more liberal-minded monarch (maybe even someone from outside the House of Hohenzollern) who would have to take an active role in the peace settlement to avoid the "Revolution from Above" which the establishment used to prevent a general workers uprising.

Germany was certainly a Constitutional Monarchy, in the sense that it was a monarchy, bound and limited by a constitution. It was far from a parliamentary monarchy, but the pre-War Germany certainly fulfils the requirements for a constitutional monarchy- just one whose constitution gave the monarch more power than what was usually the case.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

Technically yes, but in many respects it did have many of the hallmarks of at least a semi-absolute monarchy.

• The Chancellor was appointed by and only accountable to, the Kaiser, not the Reichstag
• Wilhelm II played a major role in foreign and domestic policy until the start of the July Crisis
• While Hindenburg and Ludendorff's military dictatorship sidelined the monarchy, Wilhelm, indeed, the monarchies as a whole, were seen as the key architects of the war and Germany's defeat as was the case in Russia, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire

Thus, to claim that Germany was a Constitutional Monarchy is not really accurate. For the monarchy to survive, Wilhelm would have to abdicate sooner and be replaced by a more liberal-minded monarch (maybe even someone from outside the House of Hohenzollern) who would have to take an active role in the peace settlement to avoid the "Revolution from Above" which the establishment used to prevent a general workers uprising.

While I agree that Imperial Germany became a military dictatorship during the war, it was always a constitutional monarchy in peacetime.
The former two hallmarks were approved by the constitution of the German Empire and do not violate the definition of the constitutional monarchy.
I think you put the constitutional monarchy on a level with the parliamentary monarchy, a special form of the the constitutional monarch.

Definitions of the constitutional monarchy:
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=Constitutional+monarchy+definition&btnG=Suche&meta=

 

[Grimm Reaper]

For reasons which never made sense to me Woodrow Wilson insisted that Germany dispense with the Kaiser before talks could begin. Since he knew the kind of terms which were coming he was ensuring a PR catastrophe for any nascent German democracy or republic before the Weimar Republic even existed.

 

[oberdada]

Germany was certainly a Constitutional Monarchy, in the sense that it was a monarchy, bound and limited by a constitution. It was far from a parliamentary monarchy, but the pre-War Germany certainly fulfils the requirements for a constitutional monarchy- just one whose constitution gave the monarch more power than what was usually the case.

exactly

For reasons which never made sense to me Woodrow Wilson insisted that Germany dispense with the Kaiser before talks could begin. Since he knew the kind of terms which were coming he was ensuring a PR catastrophe for any nascent German democracy or republic before the Weimar Republic even existed.

So what about President Wilson beeing assasinated by a radical anarchist or communist (or at least let the public believe it)?
Fear of the Russian Revolution in combination with a new President could be a good POD.
Thomas Marshall seems like a modest person, I don't think he would involve himself in European Politics more than to end the war.

BTW, Friedrich Ebert wanted a parliamentarian Monarchy anyway, he might convince the mayority of the Social Democrats to live with it.

A better way would be to make Wilhelm II. to resign from both beeing German Kaiser and King of Prussia in late September 1918.
He had that starnge idea of staying King of Prussia, after giving up beeing Kaiser. That made things really complicated.