WI US paid for Britain in Vietnam?

[wtw]

Are the transfer arrangements to Oman the same as Australia, I'd put money down that it isn't? Australia, UK and NZ have/had a fully integrated command system in the 60s where officers of all 3 countries were fully interchangable in staff positions. The current ADF is lousy with Brits, Canadains and Kiwis, every time one of our personnel shortages coincides with one of their downsizings they come across en masse.

Well from what I have read in Oman and much of the former British territories in the Gulf, the officers are either British, or British trained Pakistanis.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Also there is this picture apparently taken by a river marine in the Mekong Delta - make of it what you will but this particular type of aircraft only had one user and one job

I remain skeptical as it could have been taken anywhere but I first came across it in a video lecture I watched by Robert Fleming, Curator at the National Army Museum in the UK - the lecture is quite relevant regarding Britain's involvement or lack of in Vietnam

 

[Riain]

Personally, I'd take what dollars I could for minimum-risk deployments: should we say around 1960 is the moment that we get involved and the Americans footed the bill.
Heavy bombardment deployment:

HMS Vanguard - Flag Officer Vietnam Fleet - Force 1
HMS Belfast - Flag Officer Cruisers - Force 1
HMS Daring - Flag Officer Destroyers - Force 1
HMS Delight - Force 1
HMS Dainty - Force 1
HMS Diamond - Force 1

HMS Sheffield - Flag Officer Force 2 - Force 2
HMS Birmingham - Force 2
HMS Defender - Force 2
HMS Decoy - Force 2
HMS Diana - Force 2
HMS Duchess - Force 2

Try and get the American payment right into the naval budget! Otherwise, secure the supply of Brave-class gunboats to the American riverine forces, and possibly deploy a carrier (Victorious, Ark Royal or Eagle) to provide air defence for the seaborne sector.

That's what the Koreans and Thais did, the Thais are proud of their commitment to Vietnam and are happy for the military modernisation it allowed them to undertake.

Australia bought some gear for the war, including UH1 and OH58 helicopters and M113 Fire Support Vehicles which makes me wonder what Britain would do if they were involved.

 

[CraigD6]

Rick Rescorla went on to work for Morgan Stanley and was sadly killed in the twin towers attack. He drilled not just the MS staff but many others and as a result many more survived than might have done.

 

[edgeworthy]

When the RNZAF stopped operating fighter jet's in 2001 a number of the 'sacked' pilots went to the RAF who at the time were 100 pilots short of their requirement.

Which is all quite open and completely legal.
HMAF have always recruited widely from the Commonwealth, there are "Scottish" Regiments that effectively have entire companies of Fijians.
The current CO of HMS Excellent is Irish, its not and never has been an obstacle to enlistment.

 

[wtw]

Also there is this picture apparently taken by a river marine in the Mekong Delta - make of it what you will but this particular type of aircraft only had one user and one job

I remain skeptical as it could have been taken anywhere but I first came across it in a video lecture I watched by Robert Fleming, Curator at the National Army Museum in the UK - the lecture is quite relevant regarding Britain's involvement or lack of in Vietnam

interesting thank you, what plane is that, I get that its british but what model?

 

[Riain]

interesting thank you, what plane is that, I get that its british but what model?

Avro Vulcan B2, like the one that bombed the Falklands.

Which raises the point, what would a British contribution entail; I assume it would at least match the Aus/NZ one so perhaps a Commonwealth division would be formed.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Also there is this picture apparently taken by a river marine in the Mekong Delta - make of it what you will but this particular type of aircraft only had one user and one job

I remain skeptical as it could have been taken anywhere but I first came across it in a video lecture I watched by Robert Fleming, Curator at the National Army Museum in the UK - the lecture is quite relevant regarding Britain's involvement or lack of in Vietnam

In the 1950s Bomber Command sent detachments of Lincolns to reinforce the Far East Air Force in the Malayan Emergency. In the 1960s V-bombers were sent there on a regular basis and saw action in the Indonesian Confrontation. Page 246 of Rawlings has a black & white photo of a No. 10 Squadron Victor in flight with a coastal village in the background and a colour photo of 3 No. 57 Squadron Victors, "Being bombed up prior to a raid on Indonesian infiltrators."

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

At about this time 6 years ago I was in Portsmouth doing some research at the Royal Navy Museum's library. I was staying at the Royal Maritime Club, which is over the road from HMNB Portsmouth.

One morning while I was waiting outside the club for the gates to the dockyard to be opened. I got talking to a man who turned out to be a permanent resident at the club and said that he had served on Ton class minesweepers in the Far East Fleet in the 1960s. (The Ton Class Association was having their annual "do" that week.)

He said two things. First his minesweeper infiltrated Australian SAS men into Vietnam, but many of them spoke with British accents. He also said that the British Tons were used to stop the VC being supplied with arms by sea and that his minesweeper sank at least one boat with its Bofors gun.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

LBJ offered to pay substantially more (certainly at least hundreds of millions of dollars and possibly billions more) than the cost of any British military force and Britain still said no even though this was at a time when Britain was desperate for dollars. The offer was in the form of additional assistance for the £ rather than directly to pay for British troops, but it still potentially involved large sums being transferred to the UK which could then be used as the UK saw fit. It never even got as far as discussing real numbers because the British just said no.

Is it known what year LBJ offered to money to the British for involvement in Vietnam?

 

[Seandineen]

1966. Dean rusk offered to rent out Gurkha units and begged for the black watch.

 

[Zheng He]

Well from what I have read in Oman and much of the former British territories in the Gulf, the officers are either British, or British trained Pakistanis.

I've also heard that some of the fighter pilots in the Gulf States' air forces are mercenaries, mostly ex US, British, and French fighter pilots getting paid handsomely to fly fighter planes many of which are top of the line US, British, and French models like Rafaels and Block 60 F-16s. Not sure if that is true or not or maybe it once was no longer is.

 

[wtw]

I've also heard that some of the fighter pilots in the Gulf States' air forces are mercenaries, mostly ex US, British, and French fighter pilots getting paid handsomely to fly fighter planes many of which are top of the line US, British, and French models like Rafaels and Block 60 F-16s. Not sure if that is true or not or maybe it once was no longer is.

It still is trust me, a lot of the royal families do not trust their people and a lot of the rich people of oil nations don't want to join.

 

[Mike D]

I've also heard that some of the fighter pilots in the Gulf States' air forces are mercenaries, mostly ex US, British, and French fighter pilots getting paid handsomely to fly fighter planes many of which are top of the line US, British, and French models like Rafaels and Block 60 F-16s. Not sure if that is true or not or maybe it once was no longer is.

Pretty much all of the ground crews in many (western aligned) Arab air forces are either serving RAF/USAF/AdA on secondment or former members on contract work through BAE, Boeing, Dassault or whoever.

The Princes like playing Red Baron in their pointy western toys but they don't like to get their hands dirty looking after them and they don't like to trust their own people to do it.

 

[Riain]

The Princes like playing Red Baron in their pointy western toys

Fighter pilot is a glamorous job for a young Prince.

 

[Riain]

Back to the original question; what does Britain send to Vietnam if the US pays for it?

 

[Zheng He]

Back to the original question; what does Britain send to Vietnam if the US pays for it?

A carrier group to participate in the Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club, some SOF (SAS and maybe some Royal Marine Commandoes), and some airpower. Bang for the buck stuff that allows them to show they are committed to supporting their ally without having to risk the lives of large numbers of 19 year olds.

 

[Tanc49]

The UK joining might be a thorny subject in Franco-British relations
It also bears the stink of neo imperialism when everyone was trying to get away from this

 

[wtw]

Back to the original question; what does Britain send to Vietnam if the US pays for it?

I would think at minimum a similar number of ground forces that Australia or New Zealand sent for ground forces. Carriers, SAS, SBS, Mi-6 there too.

 

[Riain]

I would think at minimum a similar number of ground forces that Australia or New Zealand sent for ground forces. Carriers, SAS, SBS, Mi-6 there too.

The Australian Army deployed a squadron of Centurion tanks to Vietnam, if the British do the same the Chieftain would likely make its combat debut in Vietnam.

I wonder that if the US was paying for it would the British deploy high end stuff that needed money spent on it? For example they could send Lightnings so they can get an avionics upgrade and maybe wing pylons fitted, or V-bombers to get the ECM updated or County class DLGs to get the type 892 radars fitted and missile systems upgraded.