How much do they find out? The Germans knew an attack would be coming there, but they thought it would be a diversion. Also, they didn't know when it would be coming, the go ahead for the 6th was only given on the evening of the 4th, after the weathermen predicted a break (that the Germans couldn't know about).
That's contrary to what I've read. Hitler and Rommel thought the invasion would come in Normandy but that was a minority view and not enforced so the bulk of the forces were at Calais.
Will Field Marshal Rommel be able to convince Der Furhrer that he does need the Panzer Divisions near the Coast this time once their Abwehr and Intel assets confirm that they know the general region in which the Western Allies will land their invasion fleet.
And if so...
Once Allied Intel finds out that the Germans are moving their Panzer Divisions close to their designated invasion beaches..
Will Ike order the Bomber Command the the USAAF Air Bomber Groups to target those German Tank concentrations and interdict the crossroads and railroad lines going into their invasion beachheads??
And if so...
Once Allied Intel finds out that the Germans are moving their Panzer Divisions close to their designated invasion beaches..
Will Ike order the Bomber Command the the USAAF Air Bomber Groups to target those German Tank concentrations and interdict the crossroads and railroad lines going into their invasion beachheads??
I believe Rommel shifted increasingly to Pas de Calais as the likely landing place, thanks to Allied maskirovka efforts.
When he learned of D-Day, however, he realized immediately that his initial intuition was right all along. Unlike Hitler, he never entertained the thought that Normandy was a diversion.
Except that he did, at least partially because he believed that the Allies needed to capture a port. And yes, he did work out what the Mulberries were for, but he didn't realise they planned to send them to Normandy, he though they were going to use them in whichever port they captured to replace the destroyed facilities.
CalBear said: ↑
Hitler was fixated on Calais,
Hitler waffled several times, often in response to the latest (false) intel via the London agents. In late May he decided the main attack would be at Pas de Calis & held on to that until August when it no longer mattered. This is why he was slow in releasing the Panzer Reserve, in releasing mobile formations from other armies, and particularly the reserves of the Fifteenth Army guarding the Calais region. In late July there were still couple field divisions & a corps HQ group sitting idle north of Calis & two Pz Divisions in southern France.
There were other deception ops underway as well. The old Anvil Op was used in June as a deception op to keep the 19th Army reserves in place near Marsailles. In July that was dropped and two new deception ops started. One was aimed at Genoa, to keep the Ligurian army reserves in the Po River Valley. The other was aimed at Bourdeux to pin the 1st Army reserves. Hilter bought off on both those & When Patton broke out of Normandy there were still five infantry field divisions and the 11th Pz Div in Army Group G.
Aimed at Norway 'Fortitude North' was a deception intended to keep some 90,000 field troops and 300+ aircraft far from France. This included a hint that the Allies might just invade Demark instead of Norway. A field infantry division remained on garrison duty in Denmark through the spring and summer of 1944.
Fact is from early 1942 Allied deception ops had Hilter leaping after shadows all across Europe. The Soviets were every bit as a effective as the Brits or US. A large part of their operational and strategic success derived from genius Hitler following the many rabbit trails they laid out for him.
Hitler was fixated on Calais,
Hitler waffled several times, often in response to the latest (false) intel via the London agents. In late May he decided the main attack would be at Pas de Calis & held on to that until August when it no longer mattered. This is why he was slow in releasing the Panzer Reserve, in releasing mobile formations from other armies, and particularly the reserves of the Fifteenth Army guarding the Calais region. In late July there were still couple field divisions & a corps HQ group sitting idle north of Calis & two Pz Divisions in southern France.
There were other deception ops underway as well. The old Anvil Op was used in June as a deception op to keep the 19th Army reserves in place near Marsailles. In July that was dropped and two new deception ops started. One was aimed at Genoa, to keep the Ligurian army reserves in the Po River Valley. The other was aimed at Bourdeux to pin the 1st Army reserves. Hilter bought off on both those & When Patton broke out of Normandy there were still five infantry field divisions and the 11th Pz Div in Army Group G.
Aimed at Norway 'Fortitude North' was a deception intended to keep some 90,000 field troops and 300+ aircraft far from France. This included a hint that the Allies might just invade Demark instead of Norway. A field infantry division remained on garrison duty in Denmark through the spring and summer of 1944.
Fact is from early 1942 Allied deception ops had Hilter leaping after shadows all across Europe. The Soviets were every bit as a effective as the Brits or US. A large part of their operational and strategic success derived from genius Hitler following the many rabbit trails they laid out for him.
Poking back through some histories of the Normandy campaign I'm reminded Monty considered a second landing on the west side of the Cotentin peninsula. He spent a hour or two considering the pros and cons & then rejected the action as unnecessary. The operation seems to have been intended to threaten the rear of the 7th Army & force it to retreat out of the Cotentin. Less clear is the size. A "division" is referred to in one source, but that is entirely too small. Perhaps what was meant is a division size assault with a corps follow up.
Germany moves everything they can into the invasion zone. Inadvertently putting everything within range of thousands of fighter bombers and naval artillery.Last time I checked a 14" gun was an extremely good antitank weapon.
Damm, now I cant find that web site with all the pics of those flipped over Tigers.
Towelie
Banned
Well, if they know, then the Allies would likely know that they know when suddenly they notice German armored formations sitting in Normandy and the bulk of the 7th Army near the Coast a week before the invasion.
Now, if the Allies attacked the Germans prepared, they'd suffer greivous casualties, and possibly the airborne units would have been almost annihilated, but I think that they could eventually get a beachhead and the guns of the navy and air corps would mean that the beachhead could not be crushed. But depending on how things proceed, it is possible that a long lasting stalemate sets in and the Allies look for another area to put men ashore further south with the fresh American divisions not on the assault wave.
Now, if the Allies attacked the Germans prepared, they'd suffer greivous casualties, and possibly the airborne units would have been almost annihilated, but I think that they could eventually get a beachhead and the guns of the navy and air corps would mean that the beachhead could not be crushed. But depending on how things proceed, it is possible that a long lasting stalemate sets in and the Allies look for another area to put men ashore further south with the fresh American divisions not on the assault wave.
Archibald
Banned
Seconded. In June 1940 when the fight reach Brittany the old French battleship Courbet shelled panzers with its 305 mm guns.
takerma
Banned
It is a naval landing not a walk in the park. What happens if Omaha has double the infantry defending it. What sort of casualties we are talking about here.. forget armoured formations. Strengthening units holding the beach areas would have huge impact on casualties, also Paras.. well they get mauled bad, most likely destroyed as units completely. However allies will still be able to get atleast 2 perhaps 3 beaches secured. Also Nazis will be much more focused on mining bridges and other infrastructure and making sure it goes boom.
I dont don know much about the Nazi naval preparations but would they be able to shift a lot of uboats to the area and hope to get lucky.
All depends on time everyone has, when Nazi figure this out? Will Allies know? when? Many questions. In any case I think there is a good chance beaches will look more like Tarawa or worse.
I dont don know much about the Nazi naval preparations but would they be able to shift a lot of uboats to the area and hope to get lucky.
All depends on time everyone has, when Nazi figure this out? Will Allies know? when? Many questions. In any case I think there is a good chance beaches will look more like Tarawa or worse.
Anaxagoras
Banned
It doesn't matter in terms of the ultimate defeat of Germany. But it does matter a lot to the fate of the European population.
Sure, what if there had been three or four more men like Severloh at Omaha?
The allies were well prepared to deal with U-boats at D-Day.
Even Bagratian required effective deception. The Soviets tricked the Germans into thinking their main blow would occur farther south and turn NW toward Koenigsburg. I wonder what would've happened had German intelligence been better and Manstein still been in command. But now I'm getting OT...
Shirer wrote "watch Normandy!" (Hitler) kept warning his generals.." His "uncanny intuition" led him to suspect the allies would come there.