WI: STOL light fighter instead of Harrier?

Zen9

Banned
If we have a Anglo-French supersonic STOL trainer/light fighter/attack plane something akin of a Jaquar, could this replace:

a) Harriers
b) Hawks
c) Alpha Jets
d) OTL Jaquars
e) Super Etendards
f) Mirage F1's?
g) Possibly even take part, as rebooted version with AI radar and better engine(s) as engine technology was improving rapidly, in NATO Air Combat Fighter competition in 1970's?

Now, of course jack of all trades is master of none, but in OTL F-5 and F-20 had shared genealogy with T-38, and Jaquar did develop originally from a trainer concept, and Harrier in it's AA role from a pure ground attack aircraft...
Errrrr
...
So the short historical answer is no.
But had say we given the French leadership on the airframe of the AFVG (we had more progress with systems and engines) and kept authority over the supersonic trainer.....then both projects might have come to productive solutions.
P.45 with the fixed wing did have potential to be produced in trainer, fighter and attack variants. Though the Hawker offering is more practical.
 

Zen9

Banned
Just an aside the Convair 200 was by far a better design than augmented lift wing concept pointlessly funded.
 
Errrrr
...
So the short historical answer is no.
But had say we given the French leadership on the airframe of the AFVG (we had more progress with systems and engines) and kept authority over the supersonic trainer.....then both projects might have come to productive solutions.
P.45 with the fixed wing did have potential to be produced in trainer, fighter and attack variants. Though the Hawker offering is more practical.

Yes, probably impossible, but then again, as I wrote, Northrop developed T-38 which was developed into light fighter F-5 and then again upgraded to F-20. It would not seem a stretch to do fairly similar development path, say, by Anglo-French co-operation.
 

Zen9

Banned
Both P.45 and the HS.1173 used the simpler RB.172 which ultimately was scaled down to produce the Ardour. Similar power to the M.45 or RB.153.
 
If we have a Anglo-French supersonic STOL trainer/light fighter/attack plane something akin of a Jaquar, could this replace:

a) Harriers
b) Hawks
c) Alpha Jets
d) OTL Jaquars
e) Super Etendards
f) Mirage F1's?
g) Possibly even take part, as rebooted version with AI radar and better engine(s) as engine technology was improving rapidly, in NATO Air Combat Fighter competition in 1970's?

Now, of course jack of all trades is master of none, but in OTL F-5 and F-20 had shared genealogy with T-38, and Jaquar did develop originally from a trainer concept, and Harrier in it's AA role from a pure ground attack aircraft...

Neither Jaguar nor F-5 replaced dedicated jet trainers at 'introduction to jets' level. Part of the reason was that jets were getting very expensive to purchase and operate, and a jet that has a wing that works well at Mach 1.5 will be problematic to operate at 0.3-0.4 Mach for novice pilots that just graduated from turbo-prop A/C, like the Pilatus line or Tucanos. Countries even went that far to specify the trainers to be able to carry guns & bombs & rockets, so the airforces get a better bang-for-a-buck.
A 120 pg. pdf that covers development of the UK's Hawk makes for a very good read: link
 

marathag

Banned
All good examples of what I was questioning i.e. having some but not all the required characteristics.


  • Gnat: not truly STOL though light. Not an effective fighter (no AA missile not even in the Ajeet), though it is early enough for the time frame.

  • Hawk 200: again not particularly STOL and above all too late for the POD (first flew mid 1986)
    Reasonable fighter characteristics. Later mods able to handle AMRAAM like the Sea Harrier 2/AV-8 ++

  • AMX: introduced even later than the Hawk200 (though it first flew earlier)
    basically ground attack only. No AI radar and only 2 IR missiles for self-defence.

  • G.91R: Very early developed. Introduced in 1958 (AMX was its replacement). Not true STOL
    No fighter/interceptor capability by the late 70's (early Italian models only had 4x50 cal).

  • The similarly named G.91Y was, in fact, a different plane - 2 Engines vs 1 , from 1966.
    Better guns but again no missile. Not a Fighter despite work on the control surfaces.
    Used mostly as recon. also replaced by AMX

In 1961, the Army tested the A-4 for STOL use
A4D2NUSArmySkyhawk.jpg

Stronger landing gear with dual wheels on the mains, and a drag chute

But USAF promptly reminded the Army of the Key West agreement, and the A-4 were returned to Douglas to be changed back to standard A-4

In 1964, Douglas floated the option for Sparrow II capability for a proposed purchase for the RCAF

Used as an adversary/aggressor aircraft that mimic lighter, Soviet fighters
had 20mm Colt cannons, but some operators changed them out for ADEN 30mm

the current A-4K has the APG-66 multimode pulse Doppler radar so this could be a contender
 
A-4 was yet another sensible aircraft, whether for this thread or not.

Now, how about this: front half of the Harrier, aft half of a, say, Hunter? The Pegasus engine swivels only front pair of nozzles to assist during the take-off, landing and maneuvering; aft part is 'classic', with after-burner? Swiveling nozzles are just front to the CoG. Somewhat a bigger wing.
Hopefully, a STOL aircraft that is also supersonic, on technology of late 1960s.
 
Let’s move POD to 1967 after the Israeli Air Force bombed Arab air forces back into the Stone Age and everyone learned that long runways were vulnerable.
Let’s also move away from the “large Air Force” mentality by specifying a small nation with considerable industry ..... say Switzerland or Sweden. ..... or maybe funding from a filthy-rich country with little industry ..... say an oil producing nation like Brunei.
Then define mission: interceptor or ground-attack.

You have to keep it light because gross weight defines engine thrust, price, runway length, etc. 20,000 pound gross weight is a convenient point to start discussion. 20,000 pounds was also available from a variety of 1969s vintage, low by-pass jet engines.
Short take-offs are easy with huge thrust reserves. Just keep gross weight at 80 percent of engine thrust. Even better if your engine can develop that thrust without afterburners.
If your short take-off depends primarily to huge amounts of engine thrust, you can get by with a comparitively small wing .... meaning a heavy wing-loading with multiple bombs hanging off multiple wing pylons.

Next question is whether you will need puffer ports for control at low air speeds?????

Short landings get easier the lighter the gross weight.
First generation STOL fighters would only be able to land short near empty weight. That means expending all under-wing stores and burning most of the fuel.
Since we are already planning heavy fuel or bomb loads, we might as well plan for internal carriage from the start.
Yes, external hard points will still be needed for “weapons not invented yet” but they will not be used initially.
The primary determinant of landing roll is approach speed. The slower the approach speed, the shorter the landing role.
Sure, large wings help reduce stall speeds ...... but what if we stick with medium-sized wings by add massive blown flaps?
If this fantasy fighter can fly final approach behind-the-power-curve, it will deliver little residual energy to the runway threashold. Mind you, losing the engine at low altitude requires instant ejection because there is zero margin for error.

Short landings also assume touching down at high rates of descent. This requires stout landing gear little different than needed for arrested landings on carrier decks.
Simplest to start with LG strong enough for arrested landings.

The primary reason USMC insists upon fielding their own GA aircraft is lack of confidence naval aircraft support. This brings us back to the “small Air Force” concept.
This is similar to our fantasy Air Force that can only afford one or two types of jet combat aircraft. They need a naval variant capable of flying from container ships (ala. Atlantic Conveyor) and an interceptor variant operating from short runways hidden in mountain valleys. Airframe and engine requirements are similar.

Why am I picturing a 20,000 pound, single-seater powered by a high-bypass turbofan. The fan exhausts forward of the centre-of-gravity - maybe into massive blown flaps. That exhaust probably needs shoulder-mounted wings.
Engine core exhaust goes straight out a short tailpipe (as short as F-35 or Yak 141). Maybe the core has an after-burner.
Then we get into a rousing debate about whether to install puffer ports for control at low air speeds.
If fan exhausts were mounted wide enough apart, could they provide roll control?
Could a core exhaust - with a 2d vectoring nozzle - provide sufficient pitch control?
 
If you're going slowly enough to need puffer jets for control, then you've already dropped well below stall speed and are into VTOL territory by relying solely on engine thrust to stay airborne. In which case buy Harriers.
 
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Riain

Banned
Not relevant to the pod of the 60s but I read that modern fighters such as the Typhoon with vectored thrust nozzles are fully controlable at speeds down to 90kts. In theory this means they can land on a carrier without the traditional smash onto the wires.
 
Fun fact: Harrier have had greater thrust from it's one engine, than the A-10 from it's two, or much more than the Jaguar from it's two engines on afterburner.
 

marathag

Banned
Not relevant to the pod of the 60s but I read that modern fighters such as the Typhoon with vectored thrust nozzles are fully controlable at speeds down to 90kts. In theory this means they can land on a carrier without the traditional smash onto the wires.
The Douglas A-4 Scooter landed around 12,000 pounds at 115 knots, and still needed the wires, otherwise needed over 4000 foot if just the brakes were to be relied on
 
But it is hardly a cheap solution ...
Worse, these ships are a bad long term investment.

Emergent technologies like ballistic attack missiles, stealth cruise missile, drones, UAV and swarm weapons are likely to make any carrier (even full on CVNs) highly vulnerable within a generation.
But what's any better? Isn't the lessons of Falklands, Ten-Go etc that carriers may not be perfect but unless you are going SSN only they are the least worse/vulnerable available?
 
Worse, these ships are a bad long term investment.

Emergent technologies like ballistic attack missiles, stealth cruise missile, drones, UAV and swarm weapons are likely to make any carrier (even full on CVNs) highly vulnerable within a generation.
If they work, history is full of wonder weapons that will make everything else obsolete that failed.
 
Worse, these ships are a bad long term investment.

My added emphasis. It probably make sense to make use of what you've got.
Making new ones now ... especially a middling capability one ...meeh :confused:

But what's any better? Isn't the lessons of Falklands, Ten-Go etc that carriers may not be perfect but unless you are going SSN only they are the least worse/vulnerable available?

The true lesson is the Falkand Islands war is to give up your historic pretensions before you pay for them in blood
Ironically it applied to both sides.

The lesson of Ten-Go is that (vast) numbers of simple weapons that you can replace at need
trump a huge behemoth you can't duplicate in time.

If they work, history is full of wonder weapons that will make everything else obsolete that failed.

Just the attitude of the "black shoes" to aircraft.;)

IMHO there are uncanny parallels in the history of the CV to that of the BB
especially in for want of a better word "ecology".
For example, look at South America comparing the attitude to BBs in 1900s to that towards CVs in the 1970s.
Every country wanted one, but all found no use for them and none could really afford an effective one.

For that matter, look at how rising economic cost/unit forced the reduction of the mass of multiple BBs of the RN
as compared to the same forces curtailing the USN CVs.
 
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Riain

Banned
The true lesson is the Falkand Islands war is to give up your historic pretensions before you pay for them in blood

Historic pretensions? I read it and often repeat it: any European NATO country could field a brigade or division but only Britain could field a strike carrier.

The lesson of the Falklands is that sea powers shouldn't abandon sea power to be just like everyone else.
 
Fun fact: Harrier have had greater thrust from it's one engine, than the A-10 from it's two, or much more than the Jaguar from it's two engines on afterburner.

I was once told that a bombed up 'early' Jaguar only took off due to the curvature of the earth it was so underpowered!
 
I was once told that a bombed up 'early' Jaguar only took off due to the curvature of the earth it was so underpowered!

Not just undepowered, the wing was too small and with a too sharp sweep - good if you intend to go well above Mach 1, but punishing if you bomb it up well.
We can wonder how good the Jaguar would've been good with one Spey - non-afterburning initially, then with afterburner once training aspect of the Jaguar is deleted...
 
How about in the 50's when Bristol are first developing the Pegasus Engine they modify an Orpheus engine as a proof of concept test with the forward (cold air) nozzles of the Pegasus and a single vectored jet pipe for the hot gasses. This is then tested in a suitably modified Gnat. Now as the engine wouldn't have the power to lift the aircraft on thrust alone the play of the vectored thrust is limited to say 20 degrees below horizontal. The aircraft is then show to have a reduced takeoff and landing run despite relying mainly on aerodynamic lift.
 
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