WI Cuauhtémoc escapes from Tenotchtitlan?

Admiral Brown

In 1521, before the fall of Tenochtitlan, the Aztec emperor escaped from the city in a canoe, but his boat was stopped by a Spanish vessel. They realized he was a noblemen due to the clothes he was wearing.

What if he had managed to escaped? Were could he have gone? Could he have formed an Aztec state in exile, as Manco Capac did in Peru (his state lasted for nearly fourty years, until 1571). Could this state in exile have preserved at least some of the books and traditions of pre-Cortez Mesoamerica?

And, could he have lead an Amerindian rebelion a few years after the people of Mesoamerica have realized that the Spanish weren't gods nor liberators?

I think he might have been joined by groups who were once ennemies of the Aztecs, but who now chose to fight united under him against the new masters. Did they have any chance of succeding now?

I'm posting this because most threats about this time period focus on how likely was it for the Aztecs to defeat Cortez when he landed. The answer is usually: "quite unlikely". But maybe if they rebel later, a few years after the conquest, they have a greater chance, as they would be more familiar with Spanish tecnology. If there is a popular leader who didn't mind making alliances with other Amerindian tribes (as Cuauhtemoc was), I think they may have at least a possibility of succeding. What do you think?
 
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Caesar

An interesting idea, but I don't think the Aztecs were that popular with their neighbors, which would present a problem.
 

Sovietdolphin

Attitudes might change after a few good years of fiercely resisted Spanish occupation, however. Many Mesoamericans, while disliking the Mexica and the Acolhua (the principal of the three "Aztec" tribes of the Triple Alliance), they certainly did have a very great deal of respect for them as warriors without equal. That's why they sided with the Spanish, but the Mesoamericans respected not just martial ability - the unclean and dirty and smelly Spanish, with their abhorrence to freedom of religion and their very over racism, were not popular among any of the conquered tribes, and if there was a viable alternative, I'd expect it to be quite popular. In the early days, many Natives converted to Catholicism, but it's an open secret that, for years, most of them didn't actually give up their pagan beliefs, and instead just hid them, due to the Inquisition's harshness. Pagan beliefs persist to this day. The Uey-Tlatoani and the priest class were revered and widely respected, and if they managed to remain after the conquest, they could expect huge support even one hundred years after the conquest. If your proposed counterattack comes in, say, thirty or forty years, this seems quite possible.

The Mexica would need to acquaint themselves intimately with Spanish technology, and maybe even figure out some of the secrets themselves. This would be a difficult task, but, frankly, I think that, in consideration of how ASB our history is, this is entirely possible.

Even as they get decimated by disease - and it'd be hard to stop that - the united Mesoamerican nations have a chance of holding the Spanish off the Mexican mainland until immunities are more widespread. The desert north, and much further than Guatemala, and you'd have trouble. But I can see a creative individual making a sweet timeline here.
 

Admiral Brown

Caesar said:
An interesting idea, but I don't think the Aztecs were that popular with their neighbors, which would present a problem.
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I agree, but maybe by 1530 many of them might have forgoten most of the Aztec crimes in the face of their new masters's ones.

For instance, if I'm not wrong, Manco Inca allied with some Amazonic tribes against the Spanish, even if these had fought previosly against the Incas. And, much later (in the late XVIII century, the rebelion of Tupac Amaru II sparked the rebelion of some merindian tribes in the North West of Argentina which had never been part of the Tawantisuyo).

But then, of course, the Aztecs treated their neighbours much worse than the Incas, so I don't know if that's possible.
 

Admiral Brown

Sovietdolphin said:
Attitudes might change after a few good years of fiercely resisted Spanish occupation, however. Many Mesoamericans, while disliking the Mexica and the Acolhua (the principal of the three "Aztec" tribes of the Triple Alliance), they certainly did have a very great deal of respect for them as warriors without equal. That's why they sided with the Spanish, but the Mesoamericans respected not just martial ability - the unclean and dirty and smelly Spanish, with their abhorrence to freedom of religion and their very over racism, were not popular among any of the conquered tribes, and if there was a viable alternative, I'd expect it to be quite popular. In the early days, many Natives converted to Catholicism, but it's an open secret that, for years, most of them didn't actually give up their pagan beliefs, and instead just hid them, due to the Inquisition's harshness. Pagan beliefs persist to this day. The Uey-Tlatoani and the priest class were revered and widely respected, and if they managed to remain after the conquest, they could expect huge support even one hundred years after the conquest. If your proposed counterattack comes in, say, thirty or forty years, this seems quite possible.

The Mexica would need to acquaint themselves intimately with Spanish technology, and maybe even figure out some of the secrets themselves. This would be a difficult task, but, frankly, I think that, in consideration of how ASB our history is, this is entirely possible.

Even as they get decimated by disease - and it'd be hard to stop that - the united Mesoamerican nations have a chance of holding the Spanish off the Mexican mainland until immunities are more widespread. The desert north, and much further than Guatemala, and you'd have trouble. But I can see a creative individual making a sweet timeline here.
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Thanks for answering.

I tend to think that years after the conquest most Mesoamericans might have forgotten the grievances caused by the Aztecs in th face of the new ones the Spanish inflicted them.

The thing is, you need a legitimate leader to unite them. So, the key question is, were can this hipothetical ruler (or his sucesor) hide for ten, twenty or thirty years? In Peru, they hid near Machu Pichu, were 5000 meter-high mountains protected them. But I don't know if that's possible in Mexico.

The other option is to have not the tlatoani, but a cacique* (or his son) who had previously submitted to the Spanish and converted to Catholicism rebell. But this is less interesting, as, in this scenario, most of the Aztecs books and traditions would have been lost. Some of these traditions would have remained in popular culture; but the Mesoamerican "high culture" would have mostly gone, as most of their books were burnt. That's why I find the idea of a Court in exil more interesting

* this term is not Nahuatl
 

Caesar

Admiral Brown said:
I agree, but maybe by 1530 many of them might have forgoten most of the Aztec crimes in the face of their new masters's ones.

For instance, if I'm not wrong, Manco Inca allied with some Amazonic tribes against the Spanish, even if these had fought previosly against the Incas. And, much later (in the late XVIII century, the rebelion of Tupac Amaru II sparked the rebelion of some merindian tribes in the North West of Argentina which had never been part of the Tawantisuyo).

But then, of course, the Aztecs treated their neighbours much worse than the Incas, so I don't know if that's possible.
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I'm not an expert in this area, but I think you might also want to consider the idea of having a larger group than one individual escape, and have them travel farther. Having a small group would give a better chance at them perserving more of their society, and would also lend more legitimacy to the group than a single individual could. I would also think that having them travel further would be helpful. This would help to protect them from the prying eyes of the Spanish trying to quell rebellion, and take them away from their neighbors who likely still hold a grudge.
 

Admiral Brown

Admiral Brown said:
...What if he had managed to escaped? Were could he have gone? Could he have formed an Aztec state in exile, as Manco Capac did in Peru (his state lasted for nearly fourty years, until 1571)...
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---BUMP---

I was reading an article on the National Geographic magazine about the Raramuri (Tarahamura) who used to live in what's now the state of Chihuaha, Mexico, along the Copper Cannon, a group of Cannons in the Sierra Madre Occidental. It seems a very inaccesible terrain. I wondered if the place could have served as an Aztec retreat place. I know it's a looong way from Tenotchitlan, but...


Of course, even if a bunch of Aztec refuges* manage to get there, it wouldn't be a purely "Aztec" state, but one in which Aztec and Raramuri's traditon would mix. Most of the people would be Raramuri, but Aztec's traditions and practices (writting, time-meassuring, etc.) might eventually come to dominate, due to their being relatively more advanced (except the part about human sacrifices et al). Apparently the Raramuri's language belong to the same family, the Uto-Aztecan.


What do you think? Could Chuactemoc and his followers have goten there? Could they have been welcomed as refugees? Could a neo-Aztec state have been established there? What are your thougts on this scenario?

Here's a picture of the place:

*nobles, priests, scribes, etc.

Copper_Canyon.jpg
 
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Condottiero

A couple of things:

* On the Inquisition harshness: during the aprox. 300 years the Inquisition acted on the Americas around 300 people were killed by it (speak about the Encomenderos harshness or the Conquistadores harshness, not about the Inquisition),

* Many amerindians received titles, lands and honours, I doubt they would be eager to come back to the "good old days".
 

SilverPhantom2

The thing is, you need a legitimate leader to unite them. So, the key question is, were can this hipothetical ruler (or his sucesor) hide for ten, twenty or thirty years? In Peru, they hid near Machu Pichu, were 5000 meter-high mountains protected them. But I don't know if that's possible in Mexico.
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Agreed, this is the least of your worries. The Tarahumara easily escaped the Spanish Empire within Mexico. They are only beginning to open up to the modern world very recently.

But this is less interesting, as, in this scenario, most of the Aztecs books and traditions would have been lost.
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Unfortunately, this is virtually inevitable. The Mexica tradition circa 1520 must die in order for it to be reborn into a new Aztec culture. I'll explain further (as many people have already concluded).

The Mexica would need to acquaint themselves intimately with Spanish technology, and maybe even figure out some of the secrets themselves. This would be a difficult task, but, frankly, I think that, in consideration of how ASB our history is, this is entirely possible.
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Intimately is not the adjective I'd use. The Tlaxcala and the Mexica could be considered equal on the battlefield. The benefit the Spanish brought with them was their technology, which served best as shock infantry to break the Mexica first... and then the Tlaxcala could swoop in for the true killing spree (not to say the Spanish weren't fierce warriors.)

What if he had managed to escaped?
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This was actually the WI that got me first interested in AH actually. I have information and a proto-TL, but since I have a limited time, I'll wait til tonight. Basically, it has to be long enough for the Spanish evils to shine through (despite their giving natives titles of nobility.) but not enough time for the Spanish to begin shipping massive amounts of soldiers, resources, and colonists to Mexico.

I'll get that TL soon. ;)
 
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