So let's say that UK company produced about 200 2-engined fighters of modern appearance before September of 1939, and another 300-400 before the German offensive in West. Add nother 1000 before 1942. Performance of Hurricane/Fw 187/F5F, but with 50-150% more firepower than Hurricane. What impact can we see in the early days of ww2? Modifications for other duties? Feasible upgrades? Apropriate war theaters?
WI: an early 2-engined fighter for RAF
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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By "performance" I assume you mean speed, not manouverability? And they carry 3-4 20mm cannon?
Battle of Britain: these heavies go for the bombers, while the Hurricanes and Spits deal with the escorts. The very-lightly armed german bombers get chopped up, badly.
At work.
But.... if Britain is/has produced such machines then;
A) Would the French take heed and perchance have their own eqivalent I service? (I seem to recal a radial engined design whos name and designation escapes me. Heavily armed with 20mm cannon offensively as well as defensivly)
B) Would we see the Fw 187 produced in limited 'Counter measure' numbers to augment the Me 110's ?
Needless to say the furballs in the skies over Europe would certainly be more varied and interesting.
But.... if Britain is/has produced such machines then;
A) Would the French take heed and perchance have their own eqivalent I service? (I seem to recal a radial engined design whos name and designation escapes me. Heavily armed with 20mm cannon offensively as well as defensivly)
B) Would we see the Fw 187 produced in limited 'Counter measure' numbers to augment the Me 110's ?
Needless to say the furballs in the skies over Europe would certainly be more varied and interesting.
Driftless
Donor
One of the key performance elements for the BoB would be how long (in both time and range) our twin-engine fighter could bring to the fight. If this aircraft had sufficient loiter time, it could be scrambled earlier and at altitude, even if they needed some adjustment for location, perhaps with less fuel consumed in the process. That method might allow earlier assembly time for the "big wing" principle to actually work. Either way, that ability to have more planes in the air on standing patrol would be a decided tactical advantage to the British in that more planes could be brought to individual fights for longer periods of time. Conversely, even if the same scramble patterns as were used historically, an aircraft with longer range could be used to chase returning bombers for longer times, though there would be other tactical limitations to that idea.
Everyone was working on "bomber destroyers". The french had the Potez 630/631 (2 cannon, 4 MGs, saw combat) and the SNCASE SE.100 (4 cannon in the nose, 1 in dorsal; 1 prototype, too late for production).
Considering how much Goering was a fanboy of the 110, and the shortages of the german industry, I doubut it.
Driftless
Donor
Glyndwr01
Banned
http://www.unicraft.biz/on/s-325/s-325.htm
The Supermarine Type 324 and Type 325 were British two-engined fighter designs proposed as the replacement for the Supermarine Spitfire and Hawker Hurricane. Neither of them nor a revised design - the Type 327 - to carry cannon was accepted for development and production. Development As an aircraft to succeed the Hurricane and Spitfire then entering service, Air Ministry specification F.18/37 required a 400 mph (at 15,000 ft) fighter with twelve .303 inch machine gun armament. Hawker Aircraft submitted a single seat, single engine design with two possible engines, the Hawker Tornado powered by the Rolls-Royce Vulture and the Hawker Typhoon, with Napier Sabre engine. Gloster submitted two similar twin-boom designs with 12 Browning machine guns in the nose and a pusher Sabre engine as well as an adaptation of their proposal to F.9/37 with nose-mounted armament. Bristol's design was one airframe offered with three alternative engines.In 1938 Supermarine submitted brochures describing the Type 324 (under the company specification No.458) along with the Type 325. Both were compact twin-engine designs - one tractor and one pusher - with either Rolls-Royce Merlin or Bristol Taurus engines. Hawker's designs - which Sydney Camm had been working on since April 1937 - were accepted and prototypes of each ordered.The Type 324 was a low-wing, twin-engined monoplane featuring the elliptical wing shape of the Spitfire, with retractable tricycle undercarriage. Twin engines were expected to give a maximum speed of 450 mph maximum. In addition, the twin layout gave the usual advantages of torque cancellation, improved pilot view, tricycle landing gear, performance, improved take-off performance and allowed the use of the proven Merlin engine.The structure of the aircraft was Alclad aluminium alloy. The wing was designed in sections, so that alternative engines (Taurus) or armament could be accommodated. Fowler flaps were fitted for take-off/landing. Spoiler flaps were fitted to improve performance. A number of armament types were considered. The main was 12 Browning in two packs of six in each wing outer section; these could be removed complete with ammunition to allow rapid rearming and servicing of the weapons. When the Air Ministry felt progress on the Westland Whirlwind cannon-armed fighter was too slow, they asked for the F.18/37 tenders to be revised with 20mm cannon armament. Supermarine dropped the pusher design and proposed a six-cannon fighter as the Type 327. The Ministry did not feel its advantages outweighed other considerations, and that the Whirlwind - or the adaption of the Bristol Beaufort - would enter service before Supermarine's design could.
The Supermarine Type 324 and Type 325 were British two-engined fighter designs proposed as the replacement for the Supermarine Spitfire and Hawker Hurricane. Neither of them nor a revised design - the Type 327 - to carry cannon was accepted for development and production. Development As an aircraft to succeed the Hurricane and Spitfire then entering service, Air Ministry specification F.18/37 required a 400 mph (at 15,000 ft) fighter with twelve .303 inch machine gun armament. Hawker Aircraft submitted a single seat, single engine design with two possible engines, the Hawker Tornado powered by the Rolls-Royce Vulture and the Hawker Typhoon, with Napier Sabre engine. Gloster submitted two similar twin-boom designs with 12 Browning machine guns in the nose and a pusher Sabre engine as well as an adaptation of their proposal to F.9/37 with nose-mounted armament. Bristol's design was one airframe offered with three alternative engines.In 1938 Supermarine submitted brochures describing the Type 324 (under the company specification No.458) along with the Type 325. Both were compact twin-engine designs - one tractor and one pusher - with either Rolls-Royce Merlin or Bristol Taurus engines. Hawker's designs - which Sydney Camm had been working on since April 1937 - were accepted and prototypes of each ordered.The Type 324 was a low-wing, twin-engined monoplane featuring the elliptical wing shape of the Spitfire, with retractable tricycle undercarriage. Twin engines were expected to give a maximum speed of 450 mph maximum. In addition, the twin layout gave the usual advantages of torque cancellation, improved pilot view, tricycle landing gear, performance, improved take-off performance and allowed the use of the proven Merlin engine.The structure of the aircraft was Alclad aluminium alloy. The wing was designed in sections, so that alternative engines (Taurus) or armament could be accommodated. Fowler flaps were fitted for take-off/landing. Spoiler flaps were fitted to improve performance. A number of armament types were considered. The main was 12 Browning in two packs of six in each wing outer section; these could be removed complete with ammunition to allow rapid rearming and servicing of the weapons. When the Air Ministry felt progress on the Westland Whirlwind cannon-armed fighter was too slow, they asked for the F.18/37 tenders to be revised with 20mm cannon armament. Supermarine dropped the pusher design and proposed a six-cannon fighter as the Type 327. The Ministry did not feel its advantages outweighed other considerations, and that the Whirlwind - or the adaption of the Bristol Beaufort - would enter service before Supermarine's design could.
As noted above, both Germans and French are into the 2-engined fighters already per OTL, and German industry has problems in churning out the Bf 110 already.
At work.
Yes, it was the SE 100 I was thinking of. Forgot it 'Late' development.
Uhm... what I was meaning was that aircraft development did not all happen in seperate vacuumes.
Espionage etc had the different sides being some what 'Cluey' about what the others were doing.
So, the Brits aren't just making Spits and Hurries.... there fore the Germans aren't just making 109's and 110's.
As a side note. Was the Fw 183 ever considered for the '190' options of radial engines? Or would this entail a complete redesign?
Would look rather 'Tiger cat' -ish hey?
Yes, it was the SE 100 I was thinking of. Forgot it 'Late' development.
Uhm... what I was meaning was that aircraft development did not all happen in seperate vacuumes.
Espionage etc had the different sides being some what 'Cluey' about what the others were doing.
So, the Brits aren't just making Spits and Hurries.... there fore the Germans aren't just making 109's and 110's.
As a side note. Was the Fw 183 ever considered for the '190' options of radial engines? Or would this entail a complete redesign?
Would look rather 'Tiger cat' -ish hey?
At work.
Yes, it was the SE 100 I was thinking of. Forgot it 'Late' development.
Uhm... what I was meaning was that aircraft development did not all happen in seperate vacuumes.
Espionage etc had the different sides being some what 'Cluey' about what the others were doing.
So, the Brits aren't just making Spits and Hurries.... there fore the Germans aren't just making 109's and 110's.
As a side note. Was the Fw 183 ever considered for the '190' options of radial engines? Or would this entail a complete redesign?
Would look rather 'Tiger cat' -ish hey?
Brits are making Defiants and Whirlwinds historically, and Germans are behind the curve in engine development until 1939, and engine all the time. So Germans making another fighter means they are not making something else.
Focke Wulf was considering a twin with two BMW 801, proposal being a brand new design.
Having a Air Ministry issue a specification for a twin engine Spitfire/Hurricane using RR. Kestrels as a back up to the single merlin engine fighters. F.37/35 was issued in 1935 so having this issued a year or so earlier might mean that you have a twin fighter built comparable to the F5/34 designs.
Bumping the OP.
Bumping Post 8...since what is the AH.com without several alternate RAF threads dealing with gear and other stuff
'Early' meaning 'designed and produced in mid/late 1930s', say, as an insurance against possible deficiencies of 1-engined monoplanes. The perspective 2-engined job being a monoplane with retractable U/C. For the sake of discussion, usage of Merlins is discouraged for the new heavy fighter.
What might be the best bet, what engines (only historical stuff, including what might be realistically produced in the UK while being of foreign origin), weapons (again historical stuff preferred), layout?
We're looking for performance (speed, climb), firepower, possibility of quick development & production time.
Bumping Post 11
This is the table from Post 11
I think our best bet is to use F.5/33 rather than issue a new specification in 1934. The last 1934 specification was Spec. A.39/34 which produced the Westland Lysander and Bristol Type 148. So if a specification for a twin-Merlin fighter was issued that year IOTL it would probably be Spec. F.40/34.
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Trouble is the US will still declare the superchargers top secret and ban their export.
The big question would be range. If it has Me110 levels of range then it could cause some house sized butterflies.
Perhaps the RAF deploy some twin engined fighters to act as a loose escort for the early war raids against German ports. This might reduce the OTL bomber losses to fighters which caused the RAF to call off daylight raids and to concentrate on bombing Germany with paper by night. Without these losses what if these raids continue? How long before the Germans retaliate? Could this lead to an all out air war during the OTL phoney war? This would allow all sides to hone their skills and tactics which would aid the Wallies more as they don't have the benefits of operational training and testing is Spain. How does this alter the battle of France? If the ADA gets its s**t together I suspect badly for the Germans.
Alternatively I suspect a long range fighter would be very useful over Norway and would at least
Allow the allies to contest air the OTL air supremacy enjoyed there by the Luftwaffe.
Driftless has covered the BOB far better than I could.
Would it be possible by late 1940 to fit it with drop tanks? If so could a twin fighter fly from the UK to Malta via Gibraltar? If so that's a very interesting butterfly. It would also allow for escorted daylight raids over Germany in 1941 if the British want an alternative to night bombing. Certainly when the Americans arrive in 1942 I would expect them after seeing the usefulness of the British twin engined fighter to have developed their own long range fighter in numbers for the raids by 8th Airforce. Again this bodes I'll for the Nazis.
IIRC Blenheims and Beaufighters were able to fly from Gibraltar to Malta and on to Cyrenaica or Egypt. If I am correct I don't see why our fictional twin-engine fighter couldn't.
Even if they couldn't there is still the West African reinforcement route. That is send them by sea to Takoradi in the Gold Coast. Then they fly along the Imperial Air Route to Egypt.
Also IIRC some of the Hurricanes flown into Malta in the Club Runs were flown onto Egypt via the Cyrenaican airfields when they were in British hands and vice versa.
There was no such thing as US ban on export of any type of superchargers for countries otherwise allowed to buy US-produced military equipment.
Per post #1, Merlin can't be used here. V-1710 is way too late, so is the P-38.
Correct, afaik. The french ordered the planes without them because it would delay the delivery.
Back to the Fw 187 - Germans might think:
- Okay, we're short of Db 601s and Jumo 211s, however we have just acquired the Avia factory in Bohemia, where the HS 12Y is produced under the license. Yes, it is not as powerful as our modern V12s, but it still makes 25% more power than the latest Jumo 210G above 4000m, and it is not too heavy. So let's stick those engines on the Fw 187 and see how it works.
What they might get is a long range fighter that does 350 mph, to augment the force of slow but rangy Bf 110s and fast but short-burn Bf 109s.
Heck, even the OTL Fw 187 was not worse than Bf 110C or Hurricane I.
I thought as much but I'm at work so don't have my books to hand. I was thinking that being able to fly out from the UK would make the Club Runs unnecessary as the planes could just fly in an then provide air cover to Malta