Why are Sealion threads so hated on this site?

[TDM]

Sorry the above is me?
Yes, I meant to quote you and follow up with a reply, but inadvertently posted after inserting your quote. Sorry.

No worries, when you ready mate it's all good

 

[TDM]

"what the f*** the Isle of Wight again". Yes, lets poison the well. Then again, it might have some merit. Hitler advocated it and regretted not having pursued it. Hitler was a bungling idiot of course. Or is that just the self-exculpatory argument of self-serving German generals? You can't have it both ways.

Why not, Hitler not being there greatest tactician ever doesn't mean Manstein's claims are true, plenty of self delusion (or self justification) to go around here.

The Isle of Wight solution actually reduces the primary tasks of the Luftwaffe to one, supplying and reinforcing a garrison. With the X Gerat system they could largely do this at night, when the RAF was largely powerless to oppose it.

1). Again how does landing on an island 16 miles away from Portsmouth negates the RN?

2). You are going to land gliders, parachutes and supplies at night?

3). RAF bomber command can bomb at night (especially landing strips and supply markers that will have to be lit up at night), and we have some night fighters, oh and radar

4). In daytime the RAF is pretty much free to do what they like. If we're doing this in the usual Sealion date range there's pretty much double the daytime compared to nighttime.

5). The RN will be shelling the Isle constantly

But forget 1-5, what I'm really interested in is

6). Even if you take the Isle of Wight and say land 100k germans, no wait 200k germans, fuck it 500k germans, what then? Where do they go? Do they take the ferry and invade? Of have you just created the world's larger self governing, self supplying POW camp.


Sealion (Airlion?) onto the Isle of Wight is even worse than Sealion onto the south coast

 

[TDM]

Student was obviously not concerned with the existence of the RAF or the Non Existence of the German parachute force in June 1940

But didn't you hear "at this stage of the war, the Germans could be virtually guaranteed to beat any British force even when lacking heavy equipment, proper logistical support and the advantage of numbers". I guess not needing advantage of numbers includes actually having numbers, they're just that damn good, they don't even need to be there just the idea of them beats the Brits and Commonwealth!

 

[hipper]

But didn't you hear "at this stage of the war, the Germans could be virtually guaranteed to beat any British force even when lacking heavy equipment, proper logistical support and the advantage of numbers". I guess not needing advantage of numbers includes actually having numbers, they're just that damn good, they don't even need to be there just the idea of them beats the Brits and Commonwealth!

I'm familiar with the concept, however since Dutch reservists had the measure of the Fallschirmjäger we need not entertain the idea for long.

 

[Alan]

Although the conquest of Crete was considered a grandiose victory of the airborne corps,[97] the German leadership focused on the heavy losses incurred. The German Air Ministry was shocked by the amount of transport aircraft lost, and Student, reflecting on the casualties suffered by the paratroopers, concluded after the war that Crete was the death of the airborne force.

and that was against a small number of lightly equipped British, Commonwealth and Greek troops, with Air superiority, and supporting Navy and with supply line advantage, on an island which had a population of 500k in 1980*, and you want to drop them into the UK at 30x the size and more densely populated like it's the same?


*sorry can't find a 1940 figure




and with one hand behind tied behind their backs?

As evidenced by the North africa corp chasing the UK and commonwealth off the continent of Africa, or taking Malta

The key phrase in my quote about relative German effectiveness was "in this stage of the war". Obviously this tactical advantage became more and more marginal as the war progressed and as the British adopted combined arms tactics to match the Germans. The Germans didn't actually try to take Malta, and their failure in Africa was due to their inability to exploit tactical victories. The logistical disadvantages which the Germans might be able to overcome on the tactical level did prevent them from exploiting them strategically, and by the time of Second Alamein and the Battle for the Mareth Line the British were a match for the Germans on the tactical level anyway.

As far as the Dutch reservists in Holland are concerned certain people are being selective in their use of evidence. The Dutch reservists did rather less well in their defence of Rotterdam.

A German force ensconced on the Isle of Wight when reinforced would be able to cross the Solent between Bognor Regis and Bournemouth under full artillery cover and with the support of the Luftwaffe. Any British naval force based in Porstmouth or Southampton would be vulnerable to the Luftwaffe, which is why the British did not actually base large naval forces in the Channel.

Anyway, none of this is really an issue in my life, and is just a matter of historical interest. I'm glad the Germans did not launch a successful invasion as my ancestors would have been deported as slave labour to Europe and no doubt suffered a grim fate.

 

[TDM]

The key phrase in my quote about relative German effectiveness was "in this stage of the war". Obviously this tactical advantage became more and more marginal as the war progressed and as the British adopted combined arms tactics to match the Germans. The Germans didn't actually try to take Malta, and their failure in Africa was due to their inability to exploit tactical victories. The logistical disadvantages which the Germans might be able to overcome on the tactical level did prevent them from exploiting them strategically, and by the time of Second Alamein and the Battle for the Mareth Line the British were a match for the Germans on the tactical level anyway.

OK I think you were overstating it, but fine.

A German force ensconced on the Isle of Wight when reinforced would be able to cross the Solent between Bognor Regis and Bournemouth

How? Seriously what mode of transport will they be using to cross the Solent (that the RN will have taken up residence in).

under full artillery cover

What full Artillery cover, these are paratroopers?

But you raise a good point it's not just the RN that will be shelling the Isle of Wight, British artillery can reach some of the island, as well as the Solent from the mainland coast!

and with the support of the Luftwaffe.

The LW couldn't beat the RAF even when they concentrated solely on doing so, what makes you think the RAF fighters won't beat them again after a successful BoB. Especially when the RAF fighters can concentrate solely on them, but the LW has to travel to and be tied to one very small geographical point of the south coast defend it against RAF bomber command, and beat fighter command in the air (and face the RN providing AA)?

Any British naval force based in Porstmouth or Southampton would be vulnerable to the Luftwaffe, which is why the British did not actually base large naval forces in the Channel.

This is the same LW doing all the above, good thing this plan avoids sea lion's issue of spreading the LW too thin. Large is a relative term, compared to their opposition the KM it was pretty large, compared to the RN as whole or even just the home fleet no. But much like Sealion if the Germans actually start landing troops on the Isle of Wight I'm pretty sure the RN will turn up.

Anyway, none of this is really an issue in my life, and is just a matter of historical interest. I'm glad the Germans did not launch a successful invasion as my ancestors would have been deported as slave labour to Europe and no doubt suffered a grim fate.

Well true enough we can all agree with that!

 

[Astrodragon]

Sure, lets buildup a beachead by air thats within gunnery range of RN ships swinging at anchor at Portsmouth!
What could POSSIBLY go wrong with this??

 

[RodentRevolution]

The key phrase in my quote about relative German effectiveness was "in this stage of the war". Obviously this tactical advantage became more and more marginal as the war progressed and as the British adopted combined arms tactics to match the Germans. The Germans didn't actually try to take Malta, and their failure in Africa was due to their inability to exploit tactical victories. The logistical disadvantages which the Germans might be able to overcome on the tactical level did prevent them from exploiting them strategically, and by the time of Second Alamein and the Battle for the Mareth Line the British were a match for the Germans on the tactical level anyway.

The key phrase in your argument is simply not true

As far as the Dutch reservists in Holland are concerned certain people are being selective in their use of evidence. The Dutch reservists did rather less well in their defence of Rotterdam.

The Germans were reduced to threatening to bomb Rotterdam to destruction and did indeed accidentally terror bomb the city so rather less well here amounts to being able to hold their positions in the face of artillery and armour...which independent paratroopers do not have recourse to.

A German force ensconced on the Isle of Wight when reinforced would be able to cross the Solent between Bognor Regis and Bournemouth under full artillery cover and with the support of the Luftwaffe. Any British naval force based in Porstmouth or Southampton would be vulnerable to the Luftwaffe, which is why the British did not actually base large naval forces in the Channel.

Exactly how and with what is this Kampfbund Wight to be reinforced? Also you are aware that forces of destroyers and MTBs plus at least some cruisers were stationed at Plymouth, Portsmouth and Southampton, plus from 15 September 1940 the battleship Revenge at Plymouth. At no point during the war were any of these bases abandoned. You may want to define 'large naval forces'.

 

[SsgtC]

Hitler's own idea to seize the Isle of Wight both circumvented the problem of British naval superiority entirely since they relied entirely on airpower. The Germans could have sustained a garrison of five divisions on the Isle of Wight entirely by airpower while building a supply stockpile there.

It finally made an appearance. "The Isle of Wight strategy was the war winner." Ugh. Who wants to take it?

 

[Hammerbolt]

Back to the possibility of massed german paradrops: wasn't the Ju-52 fleet crippled by the air assaults on Holland?

 

[Crowbar Six]

Assuming the first wave of paratroopers manage to get across, as Student suggests, and how you sneak those transports across I'm not sure, what happens next. No matter what the Luftwaffe does each successive wave of transports will get savaged. The troops on the ground will do well to hold the airfields they have seized, it is inevitable some will be recaptured. Each diminishing wave of transports will be required not only to bring more troops over, but also ammunition and supplies for the troops already there, and if you increase the numbers you increase the supply requirements. In summer 1940 there were a maximum of ~750 Ju-52's in the Luftwaffe (550 when the war started and perhaps 200 delivered 1939-summer 1940). Obviously there were not 750, as some had been lost to combat at accidents, and there would be inevitably be some down for significant maintenance. Realistically let's say on day one the LW could muster 600 Ju-52 to support this airborne assault.

A Ju-52 could carry 18 loaded soldiers, so this means a maximum of 10,800 paratroopers dropped on day one, however some of the Ju-52 will need to carry airdropped supplies so let's say 50 for supplies and 550 for troops. Now we have 9,900 paratroopers (including communicators, medical personnel, etc - not all trigger pullers). Realistically expect to lose 10% of the transport force to flak, fighters, mechanical causes etc. Let's say now they land on captured airfields, but you now need more cargo use since you are bringing more troops - so 540 aircraft available, say 475 for troops so add 8,550 bodies. Of course in the first wave you didn't get 9,900 because some were lost when their planes were shot down, others killed in landing accidents, and of course some scattered who knows where. Similarly you won't get 8,550 on the second flight. BTW I doubt the second wave who have to land not jump will come the first day, earliest is day two (secure the airfield(s), deal with getting them in shape to receive planes which they will need to land in the day.

Even the incompetent British will kill and wound some of the first wave so on day 2 of the 9,900 that set out you'll be doing well to have 7,500-8,000 effectives. They are armed with light weapons, even crappy tanks with limited armor and machine guns will be almost impossible to stop (no panzerfausts in 1940). Also, other than any transport they are able to commandeer, and there were plans to immobilize vehicles as we know, these troops can only move by foot. There will be no reinforcement by sea, period.

If you do the math, it becomes obvious that after a few days you have the transport fleet cut down rather severely, perhaps 20-30,000 troops of all sorts including some support elements have arrived (some of whom are now KIA or WIA) with light weapons, and limited supplies marching on foot towards London. Oh, and BTW how do supplies get from a captured airfield to the troops who are marching forward? Captured transport, stolen horses?? Herr General Student must have been drinking some pretty powerful schnapps to think this one up.

Those airfields would have been trashed by the RAF if they even looked like being captured, 11 Group airbases were extensively prepared for demolition. They were not going to be back in operation anytime soon and no one was going to be landing anything on them except by parachute. I also suspect loses would have been in excess of 10% given that they are nice slow transports and the RAF fighter pilots will be aware they are going to be carrying troops, lots of those Spitfire and Hurricane pilots would have become aces in a fairly rapid manner.

 

[RodentRevolution]

Back to the possibility of massed german paradrops: wasn't the Ju-52 fleet crippled by the air assaults on Holland?

Hey it is on Hyperwar so use with care

Not just ops in Holland but those were the harshest losses. Still going by figures from tables table III and IX the transport aircraft had only recovered to 408 by the end of June 1940 despite beginning the campaign in the west with 531 transport aircraft (which would have been overwhelmingly JU-52s but there were other flavours).

 

[sloreck]

Oh I agree about the 10%, I was being very generous, assuming that somehow the first wave managed to get over England before being noticed. I assume that the first wave would be a night drop, which would reduce the effectiveness of the RAF and AAA, of course it would make any escorting by the Luftwaffe as a non-event. Even without extensive demolitions, surprise (if achieved) might keep that down in one or two spots, expect that fuel supplies and other vital supplies will be destroyed. At least some of the paratroops will need to be personnel from the Luftwaffe and combat engineers to restore airfields and get them back in action if only relatively little demolitions. Naturally if runways are cratered and things like repair vehicles removed or trashed, fixing that will be a time consuming effort - and who would do it. Repairing grass runways with picks and shovels and hand pulled rollers is quite labor intensive.

If there were 420 Ju-52 for Student's attack, this means, if EVERY transport carries troops and no supplies, this means 7.560 personnel board the planes to fly to England.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Ahhhh we are onto the Isle of Wight invade the solent Strategy - an area where the British had only been digging in for 300 years and just South of Portsmouth.......

Someone just needs to mention the Frisian Islands and we'll have the full set.

 

[eltf177]

OK so assuming he's now talking about Sealion and not doing this during Dunkirk. He is going to split his forces and take London without armour or artillery? And his idea of bringing an infantry division over every 36-48 hours either involves far more air transport than the Germans had, or the ability to protect, recover and reuse what they had at an extremely efficient rate? The former will need LW air superiority over southern England anyway, the latter will definitely require air superiority and the worlds greatest ground crews. The LW of course never came close to gaining air superiority.

Also what is the UK doing while the Germans land an under equipped infantry division every 36-48 hours, just waiting around? If nothing else bomber command is going to bomb those airfields to pieces.

Those airfields would have been trashed by the RAF if they even looked like being captured, 11 Group airbases were extensively prepared for demolition. They were not going to be back in operation anytime soon and no one was going to be landing anything on them except by parachute. I also suspect loses would have been in excess of 10% given that they are nice slow transports and the RAF fighter pilots will be aware they are going to be carrying troops, lots of those Spitfire and Hurricane pilots would have become aces in a fairly rapid manner.

This is similar to what I proposed, and the members pretty much trashed the idea. The odds are the Germans aren't going to get many airfields, and as Crowbar Six said they would more than likely be blown up before being abandoned. Even getting large open fields wasn't going to happen, inoperable vehicles were lined up across them to prevent their use.

And I agree 10% is a low loss figure. Even if bombers are used to bring in supplies there still won't be enough aircraft to bring in the numbers of troops needed plus all the supplies required. And forget tanks or heavy artillery, you'd be lucky to get some 75mm infantry guns across with limited ammo. And the German troops won't be able to live off the land, everything that isn't taken away will be destroyed. So no horses, trucks, gasoline, ammo, weapons, etc.

The Germans will cause some panic but I don't see any breakout and eventually aircraft losses will force an end to any reinforcement, at which point they'll have no choice but to surrender...

 

[GDIS Pathe]

full artillery cover

15" rifles vs tube artillery

 

[King Augeas]

I think the "blustering" of Manstein, Student and Brauchitsch carries more authority than the opinion of armchair generals.

I'm not a general of paratroopers, so I've no idea how easy it is to land transports on an airfield that's under direct artillery fire. Would I be correct to assume that it's easy?

 

[ArcherOfTheYard]

Because Hitler perceived Barbarossa to be the better bet. But we know it was not.

But there was another viable option. Not to launch Operation Sea Lion. Which is why said Operation was not launched.

 

[SsgtC]

I'm not a general of paratroopers, so I've no idea how easy it is to land transports on an airfield that's under direct artillery fire. Would I be correct to assume that it's easy?

Only if you're a German Super Soldier ™ and you're facing the Cowardly and Inept British ™

 

[sloreck]

There are plenty of folks here with experience in serious military history and/or military experience at senior levels (both for me). The facts are the facts - when the "generals" argue for foolishness, like the Student idea, their exalted ranks don't overcome the facts.