Alright fellas this just gave me a horrifying thought. Let's say that Carolina took Korea (unlikely, but hilarious). Then, let's say that Charlotte and Philly give the Koreans "Lost Jew" status because OTL Imperial Japan ran with the idea that Korea and Japan were of the same race and had the same progenitor to make administration easier. After all, you can still hate the Chinese, Indochinese, etc.

Theoretically, if this series of events occurs, I could be born in the Madnessverse. Granted, my grandpa and dad were/are Yankees (Marylanders) but it could happen. Which is utterly horrifying to think about.

Dude. C'mon, make yourself a P I N N A C L E M A N. I do wonder what 6771aciruM would be like...

On a more serious note, how are Better!Asian-White interracial couples and their offspring treated ITTL? Are Chinese Betters or is it more like the "ancient rome better, italians infee" thing?
 
Dude. C'mon, make yourself a P I N N A C L E M A N. I do wonder what 6771aciruM would be like...

On a more serious note, how are Better!Asian-White interracial couples and their offspring treated ITTL? Are Chinese Betters or is it more like the "ancient rome better, italians infee" thing?
I believe Interracial Better couples and children have always been something looked down upon for mixing and diluting pinnacle bloodlines. I believe fans proposed they mixed bloodline kids either hide one side of their heritage or go into careers like the military in order to achieve some sort glory and restore family honour. Chinese would probably bee seen as being descended from "Mogoloids" "originating from the Slavic steppes of Asia" and thus classed as Inferiors....at least until the prove useful to the RU and the AFC miraculously discovers their Lost Jew heritage
 
Korea? I believe you mean Easternmost Carolina.

I think Carolina-in-the-Orient sounds more like something an old-timey Southron aristocrat in a seersucker suit would say. Although Easternmost Carolina is an excellent name as well good sir.

Dude. C'mon, make yourself a P I N N A C L E M A N. I do wonder what 6771aciruM would be like...

On a more serious note, how are Better!Asian-White interracial couples and their offspring treated ITTL? Are Chinese Betters or is it more like the "ancient rome better, italians infee" thing?

Hmmmm. Me as a Cokie Pinnacle Man. I imagine all my worst qualities would be exaggerated and my beliefs would be twisted. So for instance my stubbornness would become total "my way or the highway" bullshit, and my Presbyterian faith would be.... intense. Honestly terrifying to think about.

As for Asian-White couples, I actually think they might be ok. It was mentioned that Union men left behind many half-Yankee soldiers in Japan, and since Japanese are technically "Lost Jews," I think they might be ok since as far as I know the prohibition on interracial relationships only applies to Anglo-Teutonic-Israelites and African-Americans. The Chinese, however, are totally Infees.
 
I think Carolina-in-the-Orient sounds more like something an old-timey Southron aristocrat in a seersucker suit would say. Although Easternmost Carolina is an excellent name as well good sir.



Hmmmm. Me as a Cokie Pinnacle Man. I imagine all my worst qualities would be exaggerated and my beliefs would be twisted. So for instance my stubbornness would become total "my way or the highway" bullshit, and my Presbyterian faith would be.... intense. Honestly terrifying to think about.

As for Asian-White couples, I actually think they might be ok. It was mentioned that Union men left behind many half-Yankee soldiers in Japan, and since Japanese are technically "Lost Jews," I think they might be ok since as far as I know the prohibition on interracial relationships only applies to Anglo-Teutonic-Israelites and African-Americans. The Chinese, however, are totally Infees.
if Korea get conquered by Carolina, I hope first it becomes a dystopic Korean dictatorship first and then gets conquered by Carolina.
 
I like the idea that someone would propose creating North and South Korea and everyone would agree that was a dumb idea.

*Meeting in House of Citizens about annexing Korea*

Citizen 1: Why don't we divide the peninsula into two portions along the 38th Parallel, North Korea and South Korea
Speaker of the House: *spits tobacco into bottle* Boy, what in the Sam Hell are you talkin bout? That's the dumbest damn thing I ever heard. How bout Carolina-in-the-Orient y'all?

*cheers heard throughout*
 
Chinese are solidly classed as Inferiors due to competing with American immigrants to California for gold, being perceived generally as only good (for Americans) when employed on railroads, and of course being "Mongoloid". Koreans would probably be considered the same due to their government's close alignment with the Qing. The Japanese might have escaped with the "Lost Israelite" meme but their Jew-status has been temporarily revoked until they stop speaking Japanese. But a Japanese advisor to MacArthur playing up Japan's historical links with Korea to imply the Koreans are the same people is possible, and I think very likely-- by now the Japanese still present in the RU administration have learned how to play the game, and know that bringing new conquests into the fold is the route to personal enrichment (gotta recoup the property losses of the Imperial Restoration War somehow) and appreciation from the higher-ups.

If Russia tries to absorb Finland it's entirely possible resulting reactionary backlash in Scandinavia could allow Norway (and a few Union backed paramilitaries) to form a Kalmar Union without actually having to outright conquer its neighbors.

I've been thinking about this, it definitely looks like Norway is being set up for great things-- but it's hard to see how it could achieve them, since OTL it's done pretty much nothing notable between getting savaged by the Black Death in the 1200s and discovering oil in the 1900s. Norway is the least populous and prosperous of the three Bjorn-lands, and its rival for Scandinavian unity is Sweden, the most populous and resource-rich. Except TTL we don't just have Sweden, we have Grand Sweden. So it's not enough for something to seriously wrong in Sweden-- something needs to go seriously right in Norway for the Swedes and Danes to actually consider giving up their independence to the country that's historically been the plaything that the Swedes and Danes fight over, and for the ensuing union to remain centered in Norway.

Here's some screenshots from "Experiences of War and Nationality in Denmark and Norway, 1807-1815":
upload_2019-10-28_12-34-52.png (p.65) upload_2019-10-28_12-35-47.png(p.241) upload_2019-10-28_12-36-42.png(p. 242)

When Norway's status was up in the air after the Napoleonic Wars and Sweden's crown prince Jean Bernadotte decided he wanted it, the Norwegian government (under the Danish crown prince) was faced with the following problems: 1) having less troops, with less experience 2) Sweden being backed by the Sixth Coalition in return for betraying Napoleon, so it could draw on British and even Russian help if needed. Consequently, the Norwegian strategy wasn't so much to win, but merely to negotiate the terms of surrender. They fought only to keep the conflict going until Sweden gave up and offered to let the Norwegians keep their constitution as long as they submitted to personal union.

What's different TTL? Well, Napoleon won, so Sweden has to recognize Denmark-Norway's unity and Britain can't threaten it either... but then an absolutist king of Denmark went and shit the bed by revoking the constitution whose preservation was OTL Norway's primary war aim in the conflict with Bernadotte. TTL Norway's war is totally different-- they don't have another king besides the Danish one that they can negotiate with, and they actually have English and American (and Swedish) support. Consequently Norway had means and motive to fight a real independence war and came out of it as an American-aligned republic. So Norway's army perhaps has more experience, more motivation, and imports supplies from Britain and America... but even then a lot of the systemic factors that keep Norway weak (not much population, only have so much money for imports) are still present.

Oil exploration (began in Norway in particular in the 1960s, but hydrocarbons had been found around the North Sea since the 1850s) might be able to solve the money issue-- we can assume it would start earlier, with RU or English oil companies maybe being willing to finance exploration way earlier than the Swedes were OTL. Once it's found Norway would have the ability to finance big military buildups (which the RU would no doubt support, they want the oil to stay in fascist hands as much as anyone). But Norway still needs hands to hold the weapons and steer the ships-- where to get those? I think Norway would do well to give those volunteers who fought in its independence war citizenship, or at least keep them as mercenaries/a Foreign Legion. England may be the premier supplier here-- American soldiers are needed elsewhere, and 1800s England seems like the kind of poor and unstable place that would export a lot of young men in need of whatever work they can get their hands on.

All that should get Norway to a position of having both military and economic power and all the prestige associated with that, making it seem attractive to anti-monarchist-but-still-conservative radicals in Grand Sweden. The cost, however, is an economy that is in American hands and an army/navy that's half-English. All in all, a rather humorous reversal of Hardrada's invasion.

EDIT: Actually, oil is kinda tough since all of it is offshore in the ocean, and only in the 1960s were rigs built for fields more than 30 meters deep. But there are other industries with which Norway can earn its keep, like the centuries-old trade of shipbuilding, seafood exports, or wood products (paper milling is how Norway and Finland OTL started on the road to industrialization). I'm sure the RU would gladly subsidize military goods anyways.
 
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Chinese are solidly classed as Inferiors due to competing with American immigrants to California for gold, being perceived generally as only good (for Americans) when employed on railroads, and of course being "Mongoloid". Koreans would probably be considered the same due to their government's close alignment with the Qing. The Japanese might have escaped with the "Lost Israelite" meme but their Jew-status has been temporarily revoked until they stop speaking Japanese. But a Japanese advisor to MacArthur playing up Japan's historical links with Korea to imply the Koreans are the same people is possible, and I think very likely-- by now the Japanese still present in the RU administration have learned how to play the game, and know that bringing new conquests into the fold is the route to personal enrichment (gotta recoup the property losses of the Imperial Restoration War somehow) and appreciation from the higher-ups.



I've been thinking about this, it definitely looks like Norway is being set up for great things-- but it's hard to see how it could achieve them, since OTL it's done pretty much nothing notable between getting savaged by the Black Death in the 1200s and discovering oil in the 1900s. Norway is the least populous and prosperous of the three Bjorn-lands, and its rival for Scandinavian unity is Sweden, the most populous and resource-rich. Except TTL we don't just have Sweden, we have Grand Sweden. So it's not enough for something to seriously wrong in Sweden-- something needs to go seriously right in Norway for the Swedes and Danes to actually consider giving up their independence to the country that's historically been the plaything that the Swedes and Danes fight over, and for the ensuing union to remain centered in Norway.

Here's some screenshots from "Experiences of War and Nationality in Denmark and Norway, 1807-1815":
View attachment 498116 (p.65) View attachment 498117(p.241) View attachment 498119(p. 242)

When Norway's status was up in the air after the Napoleonic Wars and Sweden's crown prince Jean Bernadotte decided he wanted it, the Norwegian government (under the Danish crown prince) was faced with the following problems: 1) having less troops, with less experience 2) Sweden being backed by the Sixth Coalition in return for betraying Napoleon, so it could draw on British and even Russian help if needed. Consequently, the Norwegian strategy wasn't so much to win, but merely to negotiate the terms of surrender. They fought only to keep the conflict going until Sweden gave up and offered to let the Norwegians keep their constitution as long as they submitted to personal union.

What's different TTL? Well, Napoleon won, so Sweden has to recognize Denmark-Norway's unity and Britain can't threaten it either... but then an absolutist king of Denmark went and shit the bed by revoking the constitution whose preservation was OTL Norway's primary war aim in the conflict with Bernadotte. TTL Norway's war is totally different-- they don't have another king besides the Danish one that they can negotiate with, and they actually have English and American (and Swedish) support. Consequently Norway had means and motive to fight a real independence war and came out of it as an American-aligned republic. So Norway's army perhaps has more experience, more motivation, and imports supplies from Britain and America... but even then a lot of the systemic factors that keep Norway weak (not much population, only have so much money for imports) are still present.

Oil exploration (began in Norway in particular in the 1960s, but hydrocarbons had been found around the North Sea since the 1850s) might be able to solve the money issue-- we can assume it would start earlier, with RU or English oil companies maybe being willing to finance exploration way earlier than the Swedes were OTL. Once it's found Norway would have the ability to finance big military buildups (which the RU would no doubt support, they want the oil to stay in fascist hands as much as anyone). But Norway still needs hands to hold the weapons and steer the ships-- where to get those? I think Norway would do well to give those volunteers who fought in its independence war citizenship, or at least keep them as mercenaries/a Foreign Legion. England may be the premier supplier here-- American soldiers are needed elsewhere, and 1800s England seems like the kind of poor and unstable place that would export a lot of young men in need of whatever work they can get their hands on.

All that should get Norway to a position of having both military and economic power and all the prestige associated with that, making it seem attractive to anti-monarchist-but-still-conservative radicals in Grand Sweden. The cost, however, is an economy that is in American hands and an army/navy that's half-English. All in all, a rather humorous reversal of Hardrada's invasion.
It seems that you forgot Norway's greatest problem: corpse-painted Illuminist Black Metal terrorism.
 
It seems that you forgot Norway's greatest problem: corpse-painted Illuminist Black Metal terrorism.

Nordic heathenism with an Illuminist bent could make for a powerful antifascist ideology in Scandinavia. Neopaganism seems built on rejection of "foreign influences," and the RU represents not just a religion of foreign origin but an interpretation (AFC) of that religion alien to the interpretations that historically prevailed in Scandinavia. However, Illuminism also demands that racism has to be ended too, so...
 
However, Illuminism also demands that racism has to be ended too, so...
That's actually the toughest part, but it may be a truly Mad version of an "ideology" from OTL.
Also, I'm not entirely sure about the Loomies being completely immune to Racism in the long run.
After all... "Every man is a god, but some men are more divine than others."
 
That's actually the toughest part, but it may be a truly Mad version of an "ideology" from OTL.
Also, I'm not entirely sure about the Loomies being completely immune to Racism in the long run.
After all... "Every man is a god, but some men are more divine than others."

Every man a god, but there’s a difference between being Osiris and Set or Zeus and Hades.
 
I actually have a question based on all this: Is Sweden on a "Unify Scandinavia" trip too, and what exactly is their ideological status? I know that during the war against the Loomies, they helped the Cokies out and even offered up troops. This seems to indicate that there is some kind of funky fascist stuff going on over there. Or was that more of a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend?" Because if Sweden and Norway are both pan-Scandinavian fascist types.... it would make sense for them to just go ahead and peacefully unify before going after Denmark and Finland.

That's actually the toughest part, but it may be a truly Mad version of an "ideology" from OTL.
Also, I'm not entirely sure about the Loomies being completely immune to Racism in the long run.
After all... "Every man is a god, but some men are more divine than others."

I feel like this will happen. IOTL, plenty of Communist movements indulged in some kind of nationalism or racism of one kind or another. Plus, Napo mentioned North Korea as a good example for the overall "theme" of the Illuminists. Now, the North Koreans might spout off about Communism to the world, but at home they are some racist mofos. Also, since Illuminism is going to devolve into some kind of state worship, having the state be the "vessel of the pure soul of x race" or whatever nonsense is pretty perfect.
 
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I actually have a question based on all this: Is Sweden on a "Unify Scandinavia" trip too, and what exactly is their ideological status? I know that during the war against the Loomies, they helped the Cokies out and even offered up troops. This seems to indicate that there is some kind of funky fascist stuff going on over there. Or was that more of a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend?" Because if Sweden and Norway are both pan-Scandinavian fascist types.... it would make sense for them to just go ahead and peacefully unify before going after Denmark and Finland.



I feel like this will happen. IOTL, plenty of Communist movements indulged in some kind of nationalism or racism of one kind or another. Plus, Napo mentioned North Korea as a good example for the overall "theme" of the Illuminists. Now, the North Koreans might spout off about Communism to the world, but at home they are some racist mofos. Also, since Illuminism is going to devolve into some kind of state worship, having the state be the "vessel of the pure soul of x race" or whatever nonsense is pretty perfect.
I think it's an enemy of my enemy situation. It would be pretty funny if the Swedes try to unify Scandinavia under a conservative government thinking they could just outvote the Norwegian fascists only for a web of fascist groups suspiciously close on Phildel talking points to suddenly spring up out of nowhere and shift the balance under the Swedes feet.
 
I actually have a question based on all this: Is Sweden on a "Unify Scandinavia" trip too, and what exactly is their ideological status? I know that during the war against the Loomies, they helped the Cokies out and even offered up troops. This seems to indicate that there is some kind of funky fascist stuff going on over there. Or was that more of a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend?" Because if Sweden and Norway are both pan-Scandinavian fascist types.... it would make sense for them to just go ahead and peacefully unify before going after Denmark and Finland.

I think the biggest question on TTL's AH.com's After 1900 section will be "What if the Hohenzollerns didn't all up and die"? In the last war the Nordreich was neither Catholic nor fascist, it aimed only to establish a bloc of similar-minded Protestant conservative monarchies that could rival (or beat) Europa. Other members of the bloc included Sweden and the Netherlands. However, they sent a telegram asking the fascists for help (or so Custer claims...) which brought Britain and Norway in. During the Germanian Civil War the Swedes were simply hoping the Nordreich could just come back as it was before, and likely distrust Kapp now for his disloyalty to Erika. But now that the Nordreich is kaput, that whole bloc lost its biggest member. They can't hope to take on Europa ever again, not alone... so will they accept Caesar's suzerainty or link up with a new patron?

That's how I imagine the national conversation in Sweden's going: we're doing better than we ever have before, we've annexed our oldest rival... but what next? At the moment, though, I don't think anyone is yet considering going full fascist-- after all, there's nothing wrong with business-as-usual, King-and-Country politics, it's just that the Papists or the cultist republican lunatics haven't had their leading member tear itself apart in a civil war yet.

But should a sudden event threaten Sweden's independence, if the government isn't quick and decisive in its response you might see factions of the Swedish public take the question of "Caesar or President" into their own hands.

IOTL, plenty of Communist movements indulged in some kind of nationalism or racism of one kind or another. Plus, Napo mentioned North Korea as a good example for the overall "theme" of the Illuminists. Now, the North Koreans might spout off about Communism to the world, but at home they are some racist mofos. Also, since Illuminism is going to devolve into some kind of state worship, having the state be the "vessel of the pure soul of x race" or whatever nonsense is pretty perfect.

Russia is where this will be put to the test. It's a diverse country, but there's clearly a dominant ethnicity and its relations with the others are varying degrees of not good. If the Illuminists are open to cultural acceptance as they claim, then great. But if they conclude that a Tatar or Kalmyk can never be truly free of religious poisoning until all habits of Muslim/Buddhist origin are purged from their culture, or that Judaism/shamanistic traditions of the north ought be classified as religion rather than culture... then things get bad.

It would be pretty funny if the Swedes try to unify Scandinavia under a conservative government thinking they could just outvote the Norwegian fascists only for a web of fascist groups suspiciously close on Phildel talking points to suddenly spring up out of nowhere and shift the balance under the Swedes feet.

This would be a pro gamer move, but the Norwegians may value their independence and constitution too much to confidently stake them on possible future dominance. Sweden would probably have to agree to a lot of terms and conditions beforehand, and at that point it's Norway dictating to Sweden and not the other way around.
 
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Actually, has the Swedish king considered marrying Erika? Even if there already is a Swedish heir, I think that you can inherit through a stepmother, right? It's not like there's any other heirs to Finland with more legitimacy. Or the existing heir to Sweden could just marry Erika himself (age gaps are yucky but that didn't stop the Hohenzollern-Wettin union).

Europa would probably support it, if only to stabilize a region on the border with the Illuminists. It would also be a reunification of the old Vasa realm, and it would give claims to all former Nordreich territory. But I suppose if it hasn't happened already, there's no time for it before the next war-- unless it's a future Swedish attempt to nab Finland that finally wakes the Illuminists up, leading to a Norwegian offer of assistance...
 
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This would be a pro gamer move, but the Norwegians may value their independence and constitution too much to confidently stake them on possible future dominance. Sweden would probably have to agree to a lot of terms and conditions beforehand, and at that point it's Norway dictating to Sweden and not the other way around.
I think it would be another feather in the cap of the RU's frankly refreshingly hypercompetent intelligence services. The idea that they're running circles around everyone else without bothering to master the accents is pretty entertaining.
 
Ever heard of King Kullen. It is a small supermarket chain in newyork that is considered by the smithoain to be america first supermarket. It was found in 1930 by an irish man name Michal cullen thus i doubt king kullen would exist. The Ru will need another supermarkt. I know just the guy to start. Fred Trump. The donald father own a supermarket callerd trumps maekt otl for 6 before saying out to king kullen. here a link that supports my claim. https://qns.com/story/2016/12/01/looking-back-donald-trumps-fathers-connection-woodhaven/. I also heard that trump is an american of trumpf which was orginall spelled drumpf which is german for drum. I like the idea of the trumf/ drumpf american there name as drumer. They could call there stroes drumers market and use a drum as a logo
 
Speaking of the Hohenzollern-Wettins, didn't one of them rule Bohemia? If he has children, they could claim the former Germanian territories.
 
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I think Carolina-in-the-Orient sounds more like something an old-timey Southron aristocrat in a seersucker suit would say. Although Easternmost Carolina is an excellent name as well good sir.

Or, you could add a bit of old-fashioned semi-racist terminology and go with “Oriental Carolina”.

On a separate note, what’s everyday life in Ireland like? Being an Irish infee papist myself, I’ve been wondering how it’s going over there, and how they’re reacting to the hellstorm forming around them.
 
Or, you could add a bit of old-fashioned semi-racist terminology and go with “Oriental Carolina”.

On a separate note, what’s everyday life in Ireland like? Being an Irish infee papist myself, I’ve been wondering how it’s going over there, and how they’re reacting to the hellstorm forming around them.
Daily life in Ireland hasn’t been mentioned much. Before the war, society was generally moving to be more militarised in preparation for war with Britain, with militia groups being organised among the citizens. Irish Protestant weren't treated the best but nowhere near as badly as the Catholics in the RU. In the WMIT EU, we ran with that and built up Ireland as a bizzare Socalist Monarchist military dictatorship. Everything is militarised to a ridiculous degree to keep the army fueled during the war. Socialist James Connolly has basically gutted the upper and noble classes and stuffed rump parliament with socialist supporters while at the same time being absolutely dedicated to the King and imprisoning anyone who dares question the royalty or workers revolution. The population support all this because it means survival against British tyranny and the nobles were dicks. Oh! And Oscar Wilde was PM, so lgbt rights were a thing much earlier and the population is more willing to look the other way during the war, so surprisingly progressive on some fronts.

I imagine after the war, some of the more extreme measures were relaxed to allow the country to function outside of a wartime footing but still remaining highly militarised and oddball. A socialist military with a king and country attached.
 
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