What If These Two Warships Met In Combat

Naval Aviation Fan

This is something I was toying with a while back, but never got around to:

HMS Prince of Wales, after fighting the biggest and baddest battleship in the German fleet, the Bismarck, then gets sent to the Pacific, but on the way Runs into an Italian Littorio class Battleship, and afterward, mends any wounds in Alexandria, and then proceed east as part of Force Z, where, in this alternate timeline, they encounter the IJN Yamato, on dec 10th, somehow in service 6 days before her historical commissioning date of 16 dec, 1941, and in an epic battle...

HMS PoW goes down in history as the only British battleship to engage all three Axis nations best battleships in the second world war...
 
gatordad699

gatordad699

Not Targets but Boat vs Boat

637 Short Hull (with ADCAP) vs Soviet Alpha

1st Flight 688 vs Soviet Oscar

688i vs Soviet Akula

Seawolf or Virginia vs Soviet Yasen or Akula
 
Gillan1220

Gillan1220

This happened in real life but the incident is obscured by history so it seems like alternate history but isn't.
Philippine Navy vs. Rogue PLA-N sailors doing a commerce operation (piracy) in early 1996

Tomas Batilo-class patrol craft vs Type 21 fast attack missile boat*

Jose Andrada-class patrol boat vs Type 21 fast attack missile boat

*NATO: Huangfeng-class fast attack missile boat (based on the Soviet Osa II-class missile boat)
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
Gillan1220 said:
This happened in real life but the incident is obscured by history so it seems like alternate history but isn't.
Philippine Navy vs. Rogue PLA-N sailors doing a commerce operation (piracy) in early 1996

Tomas Batilo-class patrol craft vs Type 21 fast attack missile boat*

Jose Andrada-class patrol boat vs Type 21 fast attack missile boat

*NATO: Huangfeng-class fast attack missile boat (based on the Soviet Osa II-class missile boat)
Click to expand...

How did that play out tactically in history? I can imagine that politically, the cone-of-silence was dropped on the incident
 
Gillan1220

Gillan1220

Driftless said:
How did that play out tactically in history? I can imagine that politically, the cone-of-silence was dropped on the incident
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The outgunned Filipinos emerged victorious as the Huangfeng boats didn't have their Styx missiles loaded. Had the Styx missile been there, the Filipino patrol boats would not have had the chance to engage the rogue Chinese sailors/pirates. The engagement was done using mounted guns and small arms. One Huangfeng was sunk during a clash in January 22, 1996 and another was impounded by the PN on February 11, 1996.

The account was written by a Philippine Coast Guard veteran who has access to archives. Credits to the author, CMDR Mark R. Condeno.
First clash: January 22, 1996
BRP DIOSCORO PAPA (PG-381) AGAINST 2 CHINESE HUANGFENG FAC/MISSILE BOATS AND 1 CHINESE ARMED TRAWLER…
A 3 AGAINST 1 ENGAGEMENT…

OFF CAPONES ISLAND…In the early hours before dawn of 22 January 1996, the Radarman aboard BRP Dioscoro Papa (PG-381) of the Assault Craft Force, Philippine Fleet saw the 3 blips appeared on his surface search console…11 nautical miles off the Luzon Coast, South China Sea.

As backgrounder, BRP Dioscoro Papa (PG-381) has been recently commissioned Seven months prior to this momentous engagement on 1 June 1995, she was with the second batch of Brandnew 78 footer Halter Trinity Marine Patrol Gunboats procured during the Presidency of President Corazon C Aquino a batch of 22 Patrol Gunboats based on a US Coast Guard Design with aluminum hull and superstructure. The original acquisition was planned for 35 units but was reduced to 22.

NAMESAKE OF PG-381 (NOW PC-381):
The namesake of BRP Dioscoro Papa is the 2nd Commandant of the Philippine Coast Guard COMMODORE DIOSCORO PAPA, a CAVITENO and an advanced ROTC Graduate from Mapua Institute of Technology, College of Engineering, one of the early OSP Officers. He commanded various PN Warships notable are RPS Negros Occidental (PS-29) and our Patrol Craft Squadron. As a junior officer, he skippered one of the Auxiliary Motor Minesweepers for the Korean Navy in 1947.

SPECIFICATIONS:
She has a Maximum speed of 28 knots and armed with one 25mm Bushmaster chain gun on Mk.38 Mod.0 mount, four M2HB Browning 12.7 mm/50 calibre machine guns on Mk.26 mounts, with two positioned forward and two aft; and two M60 7.62 mm/30 caliber machine guns, mounted amidships. They were supposed to be armed with bow mounted 40mm Mk3 Guns, an 81mm Mortar and 4-50 Cal MGs.

THE BATTLE:
Back to the situation, full speed was ordered to pursuit the unidentified craft and later on the gun crew received orders to fire a warning shot at the three vessels which were not heed to and instead the Chinese vessels tried to ram PG-381, with the ensuing melee the both sides opened fire and the Filipino Sailors saw one of the ships with a Red Star Flag and allegedly military cloth personnel.

The 90 minute gun battle between a single Filipino warship emerged as one of the violent engagements between the two nations forces in the modern era…with heavy gunfire erupting on both sides.

One of the FACs was identified with a bow number 04420…as what was written on available sources, the Chinese first broke the engagement as they ran out of ammunition or their weapons jammed. Unknown to them PG-381 expended all its ammunition on this engagement and nearly all its fuel. It was also noted that the Chinese all broke the engagement as they have suffered casualties on their side, I have not found or is written on the sources that PG-381 suffered casualties.

There were unconfirmed reports that we sank one of the Huangfengs on this battle.

Again we have shown that however small the Filipino gunboat is, we took on 3 Chinese ships and most of you would notice that this engagement and that of on February 10, 1996 in which the Huangfeng was captured one tactic prevalent is of ramming our Gunboats.
One could only see the amount of ammunition that was received by the Chinese vessels from our lone gunboat.

And I believed this would be asked, what of the missiles on board the Huangfengs, the Styx has to be fired when you are stationary, but when you are the pursued and this as most say is not sanctioned by the PLAN but rather a Commerce raiding operation, there might be no missiles on those tubes during the engagement as one of the FACs could escape and launch one against PG-381.

Photograph of BRP Disocoro Papa (PG-381) from www.flickr.com/photos/29421855@N07/8121346325 accessed 26 January 2020
Photograph of Huangfeng from www.gladiusds.com/warships-and-naval-systems/surface-vessels/missile-boats/osa-class-moskit-class/accessed 17 January 2020

Sources:
The Security Environment in the Asia-Pacific by Hung, Mao Tien, Tun Jen Cheng and Tun Jen Cheng.
Maritime Security Between China and Southeast Asia by Liselotte Odgard
Maritime Piracy: a Reference Handbook by David Manley
www.southchinasea.org/table-7/
www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/spratly-clash.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Andrada-class_patrol_craft
Jane’s Fighting Ships 2000-2001
Jane’s Fighting Ships 2002-2003
Photograph of Chinese Trawler www.breitbart.com/asia/2018/12/10/experts-chinas-fishing-vessels-in-philippines-a-secret-paramilitary/accessed 26 January 2020
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Incident logged on Anti-Shipping Activity Messages:
Date of Occurrence: 01/22/1996 Reference Number: 1996-15
Geographical Subregion: 92
Geographical Location:
Aggressor: ASSAILANTS
Victim: Philippine Navy
Description:
Philippines A Philippine Navy gunboat and a Chinese ship engaged in a 90 minute gun battle off Luzon Island during the early morning hours. The encounter began when the Philippine Ships spotted two suspicious vessels 12 miles off Capones Island. The Phillipine gunboat fired a warning shot for the intruders to stop. One boat fled, the other tried to ram the Navy gunboat. A chase ensued, ending when the Philippine Navy boat ran out of fuel and it's guns jammed. The encroaching vessel was described as a People's Republic of China vessel having a bow number of 04420. It was said to be flying a red star flag. One report claimed that military men were on board. Phillipine Navy Chief Vice Admiral Pio Carranza is quoted as saying that the intruders were mostly Chinese pirates and that investigators had ruled out involvement of the Chinese Navy.
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Second Clash: February 10, 1996
BRP Pangasinan (PS 31) against HUANGFENG FAST ATTACK CRAFT around 2200H while on patrol at the Zambales waters detected an intruding vessel near the Zambales coastline..territorial waters of the Philippines...
.
Then Capt Ernesto H De Leon accompanied by the FOIC Admiral Pio Carranza in his narration to then President Fidel V Ramos who was at Fort Andres Bonifacio, informed the CIC that the vessel in question was a CPIC Type or Coastal Patrol Interdiction Craft later identified as a Chinese Huangfeng Fast Attack Craft.

During the pursuit of the Chinese FAC, it tried to ram another PN Gunboat BRP Tomas Batilo (PG-110) leadship of the Tomas Batilo-class was able to outmaneuver and observed that the CPIC does not fly any flag.

As both PS-31 and PG-110 continued the chase, the Commanding Officer of PG-110 ordered to fire warning shots to the CPIC using M-16's in a distance of 700 yards.

Instead of heeding the warning shots by PG-110, the CPIC returned fire with AK-47 Rifles.

In a classic maneuver, PS-31 skippered by Capt Ernesto H De Leon and PG-110 assisted by two other Gunboats presumably 2 Jose Andrada-class captured the Chinese warship around Tabones Island and Los Frailes Island north of Subic Bay.

Both warships forced the Chinese ship into the Subic anchorage and boarded it, after PS-31 fired a 20mm warning shot.

During the boarding procedures, Seaman's books bearing Chinese insignia, logbooks in Chinese language, and identification cards of the captured seamen which does not match their names were confiscated.

The Chinese Fast Attack Craft has a compliment of 20 Officers and Crew.All were detained at HPN. This was the third time that suspected smugglers and the PN fought.

The said Chinese FAC was also identified as the one who fought another PN Gunboat on 22 January 1996 off Capones Island as it has the same Bow number.

During the 22 January 1996 engagement, 2 Chinese Huangfeng FAC engaged a PN Jose Andrada-class gunboat which sunk one the Chinese FAC, while the other was able to escape International waters.

It was noted that these warships as came from bases in Southern China.

Of the 20 Chinese, 2 were already captured in an October 1993 smuggling operation.

This has been a modus operandi of smuggling or piracy operations.

SOURCES:
The Philippine Navy 1898-1998 by Commodore Regino Dodds Giagonia, 1998, HPN, Centennial Edition.
Manila Bulletin February 12 1996 issue
www.istorya.net/.../384770-philippine-navy...
PHOTOGRAPH SOURCE:
BRP PANGASINAN (PS-31)
www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=914442
accessed 21 January 2020
CHINESE HUANGFENG (TYPE -21 OSA CLASS) Photograph for reference only, not the actual unit involved..
www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jframe.html...|||
BRP TOMAS BATILO (PG-110)
From defenseph.net accessed 21 January 2020.
JOSE ANDRADA Class PG Photo of BRP Juan Magluyan for reference only, not the unit involved. en.wikipedia.org/.../Jose_Andrada-class_patrol...
Click to expand...
Incident logged on Anti-Shipping Activity Messages:
Date of Occurrence: 02/10/1996 Reference Number: 1996-16
Geographical Subregion: 92
Geographical Location:
Aggressor: PIRATES
Victim: PHILIPPINE NAVY
Description:
Subic Bay, Philippines. A Phillipine Naval Patrol spotted a Chinese pirate vessel about five miles from the entrance to Subic Bay and tried to warn it off by firing shots into the air and contacting it by radio. The Chinese ship responded by trying to ram the patrol craft and firing rifles. The intruding vessel attempted to escape but was brought to shore by 3 Phillipine Navy ships. Phillipine investigaton revealed the 20 man "Pirate" crew was entirely Chinese. General Arturo Enrile, Armed Forces Chief, is convinced that the Chinese government had no knowledge of the activities of Chinese pirates in Philippine waters.
Click to expand...
News articles of the first clash:
www.csmonitor.com

Manila Treads on Eggshells With China Over Ship Run-In

HIGH SEAS INCIDENT
www.csmonitor.com www.csmonitor.com

Second clash:
www.upi.com

Manila navy apprehends alleged Sino boat - UPI Archives

Philippine navy patrol gunboats exchanged fire with a suspected Chinese vessel after it illegally entered the country's northwestern waters, authorities said...
www.upi.com www.upi.com

Keep in mind this was happening in the shadow of the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis, and the Philippines was preparing to host APEC 1996 later that year. This incident happened two years after China built structures on Mischief Reef and seized it in 1995. The Philippines was naked after it voted to kick the U.S. bases out in 1991, which was formally completed by November 1992.

Note in the article that Beijing officially denied involvement, instead blaming it on rogue PLA-N commanders operating from bases in southern China. The Philippine Navy authorities that detained the Chinese sailors found uniforms used by the PLA, various small arms known to be used by the Chinese, and fake passports and IDs that do not match the names of the sailors. I can see this a form of "plausible deniability" as it not official since the sailors were not wearing identifiable insignias despite the PLA-N ensign being flown on one of the captured Huangfeng boats.
 

Captain Seafort

CaptainCalvert said:
Two Alaskas against Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

I'm picking the predators win, even if S and G have been retrofitted with 15" guns as intended.
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I'm not so sure - Alaska isn't fast enough to control the range, and though she's better armed and has better fire control, the Scharnhorsts are much better protected. If the Scharnhorsts have been upgunned the Alaskas could be in a lot of trouble.

Sekhmet_D said:
Iowa wins handily. In fact, even South Dakota might have decent enough odds.
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No. Either of them might beat a Yamato, but it would be a close run thing either way.

naraic said:
I'd definitely give it to Renown. The hitting power of the 15 inch guns will imo just outdamage the 11 inch guns of scharnhorst.
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Even with both Scharnhorsts present, the odds are on Renown - that's why they ran away.
 

1Big Rich

HMS Neptune (the battleship) has always fascinated me; she's different from her half-sisters Colossus and Hercules.

is70627_Neptune-1.jpg


So how about HMS Neptune v. USS Delaware?

uss-bb-28-delaware-1910.jpg


Regards,
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
CaptainCalvert said:
Two Alaskas against Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

I'm picking the predators win, even if S and G have been retrofitted with 15" guns as intended.
Click to expand...

I've often wondered how the Alaska's 12"/50 Mk7s would work in battle.

The Alaska's 12" AP rounds went 1,140lbs(517kg)
The S&Gs 11"/280mm AP rounds went 727lbs/330kg
The Bismark type 15"/380mm AP rounds went 1764lbs/800kg
 
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YYJ

Questerr said:
Assuming they don’t use them/are too close to use them.
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Too close would be the best possible scenario for the New Jersey. Any range at or closer than the horizon, and the Kirov will be eating 16" shells, which it has no capacity to absorb.

Kirov's best chance would be to engage at the max range of the P-700 Shipwreck missile, which is somewhere between 400 and 625 kilometers. Upgraded New Jersey carried up to 32 BGM-109B Anti-ship Tomahawks cruise missiles and 16 Harpoon Anti-ship missiles. The most capable missile of the batch was the P-700, fast, low flying, and with a swarm intelligence and 750kg warhead. The Tomahawk was slow, but had a 1000lb warhead. The Harpoon is a better anti-ship missile but only has a 500 lb warhead and 140km range. New Jersey had drones to assist in missile targeting, The P-700 could do its own targeting. The one-ship vs. one-ship scenario is very unlikely in the real world, where both sides would be assisted in targeting by aircraft, satellites, subs, or other surface ships.

The Kirov has major organic air defence systems, with a naval versions of the S-300 for long range defence, an OSA-MA/SA-4 medium range missile, 130 mm guns with some anti-air capacity, and 6 x 30mm gatling guns for point anti-missile defence. The New Jersey only has the Vulcan CWIS for point defence. The USN never imagined the battleship would be fielded without an escort group that would provide air and anti-missile defence. Both ships have electronic warfare suites and chaff dispensers. It is worth noting that in the Ukraine war in 2022 the Slava Class cruiser Moskva, with the same missile defence suite, was sunk by 2 Ukrainian Harpoon -type missiles.

New Jersey has twice the displacement of Kirov, which correlates with the ability to absorb damage. New Jersey also has armour that the Kirov's weapons could not possibly penetrate. The P-700 carried an HE warhead, a submunition dispenser, or a nuke, but we are not allowed to use the nuke in this scenario. Kirov's best hope would be to saturate New Jersey with superstructure damage, destroying all her sensors and fire control, making it impossible for New Jersey to retaliate. This is not an unlikely outcome, given the P-700's long range and characteristics, and the New Jersey's lack of organic AA. Kirov has, like most other modern warships, no armour. If Kirov starts taking hits from anything it will be lucky to make it back home. New Jersey is very unlikely to sink, or even be slowed down, but could be mission killed by long range missile attacks. World War Two American experience and 2022 Ukraine War experience suggest that US damage control would be way better.

Edit: The side that hits first has the great advantage. Or alternately, Kirov expends all her missiles, including the S-300s on New Jersey destroying all her fire control gear, and receives moderate damage like a single Harpoon hit in return, slowing Kirov down. New Jersey chases at full speed. I was going to say New Jersey rams Kirov for the win, but actually would only need to close to a range where the 16" turrets would be able to start scoring hits on local control.
 
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