This is quite reasonable. Of course, in OTL similar situation in Moscow-Novgorod relations evolved first in Moscow’s control over appointment of the princes of Novgorod (big part of which had been Great Princes of Moscow) and then in a full-scale control of Novgorod (by Ivan III) with most of its privileges abolished and a noticeable part of the ruling class replaced by the Moscow service people. Of course, it can’t be realistically expected that Jogaila would get engaged in such a long term planning.
What if the Russians gained independence from the Mongols much earlier?
- Thread starter Wr1t3r
- Start date
Yeah, but still if he had better (from his POV) offer why would he turn it down in favour of pursuing some far-fetched scheme?
Ignoring the fairly implausible mechanics of Novgorod-Lithuania unification in 1250 or whenever this is supposed to take place, what exactly does Lithuania gain from going against the Horde again? They were hardly enemies in our timeline and Lithuanian dukes in the former Rus were happily paying tribute to the Horde even while inside Lithuania, even more reliably than Russian princes, until the tribute system was abandoned. Lithuania had all to gain from a friendly relationship with the Tatars and little to gain from going against them during what is essentially their golden age.
not having to pay them tribute, unifying with novgorod makes them stronger against the teutonic knights, without losing their culture like they did in OTL by fusing with Poland.
They would most probably lose it as well, a lot of Lithuanian noble families converted to Orthodoxy and adopted Ruthenian language.
Yes, and Polish culture was in an even stronger state of development than the Ruthenian, so there would have been far less of it than there was to the Polish in OTL
Sorry, but this is random nonsense.
Paying tribute: it doesn't mean much if the alternative is having to fight an ever growing native Russian power while losing access to potential allies from among fellow vassals.
Unifying with a Mercantile Republic involves Lithuania in a lot of extra challenges that wouldn't really concern her otherwise.
And of course, nobody plans for the eventual demise of their own culture so that's not something that has weight in whether Lithuania wants to go pro-Mongol or not.
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Based upon the popular stereotypes: the Teutonic Order and GH are everybody’s enemies. Which, of course, too black and white to be true.
Witold was regularly in alliance with the Order. Lithuania was quite often in alliance with GH. Princedom of Moscow was quite regularly fighting on the same side with the Horde, especially against other Russian princedoms (which were doing the same). Novgorod was regularly in alliance with Lithuania but also had the Moscow princes as its own princes. Moscow-Lithuanian relations were quite convoluted but, after all, Moscow had been ruled by Witold’s descendants and when it became Tsardom a considerable part of its top aristocracy was from GDL (even if many of them were ethnic Russians/Belorussians/whatever): in Tsardom’s hierarchy descendants of Gedemin were at least on the same level as the Rurikids.
It meant very little: well after the GH was gone the PLC and Tsardom had been paying …er… “presents” to the CH just to keep it off their backs.
I’d not overemphasize the “republicanism” of Novgorod, which AFAIK, never called itself a “republic” (unlike Venice or Genoa). Probably it was an oligarchy with some leftovers of the old Slavic “democracy”. Some issues had been decided by the popular assembly in a truly democratic fashion: in a fistfight the losing side was either chased from the meeting square or thrown into the river. 😂
Of course, a parallel existence of these and more authoritarian practices was hardly practical.
Especially taking into an account that the GH converted into Islam.
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I don't know, polonization maybe was seen as more attractive option, but ruthenianization could potentially last a lot more due to independent GDL probably never adopting distastrous principles PLC did and surviving, thus not ending noble culture dominant in that state.
I would love to see the TL where this was the standard parliamentary practice up until modern times.
Maybe when I was younger. I've written a few things for RPGs and I'm tempted to include in an adventure (along with wife selling).