US adopts Bren in the late 1930s

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McPherson

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The US FDC could on-call respond as quickly as 30 seconds flat from radioed request to service the target. The only drawback was surveying in benchmarks, also called pre-registered marked positions. Then the observer walks the fire onto the target from the registered marked position via correction left right, up down. This could be done quickly by any army with good maps and on call fires within a couple of minutes. ANY army could, but the Americans were just that much faster off their maps. The difference was the Americans could also MASS fires on call. That was something in WWII that no other army could do. They did not have the distributed radio nets for it as the Germans found out at St Lo.
 

Deleted member 1487

The US FDC could on-call respond as quickly as 30 seconds flat from radioed request to service the target. The only drawback was surveying in benchmarks, also called pre-registered marked positions. Then the observer walks the fire onto the target from the registered marked position via correction left right, up down. This could be done quickly by any army with good maps and on call fires within a couple of minutes. ANY army could, but the Americans were just that much faster off their maps. The difference was the Americans could also MASS fires on call. That was something in WWII that no other army could do. They did not have the distributed radio nets for it as the Germans found out at St Lo.
3 minutes was the average for a non-TOT mission by 1945.
The German artillery computer averaged about 2 minutes to mass multiple battalions, the only problem (for them, not us) was there didn't have enough to go around:
 
I wonder if the US Bren might start life in a sort of WW2 analogy of when the P14 Enfield becoming the M1917 Enfield in that the 3 US Factorys (Winchester, Remington and Eddystone) in WW1 that built the P14 for the British in the early part of WW1 ended up producing the same gun in 30-06 for the US Army (and in fact providing the AEF with 2/3rds of its rifles over the legacy M1903)

So have an earlier British conscription act than late 38 and expansion of the army than OTL with the British expanding to a 32 Division force in 1938/39 (6 regular and the 13 TA Divisions stood up and doubled) and the British turn to the US to enable them to cover the production shortfall in order to equip these conscripts with BRENs and Rifles (Savage arms for example made No4 rifles in WW2).

Orders for US Made BRENS in 38-40 are very high, however the British (and Empire) industry ability to produce enough BRENs picks up by 1940 and orders for US BRENS drops off.

The US Army is at this time also rapidly expanding and seeing that there are several factory's in the US making a top quality LMG's in large numbers leverage the design into a 30-06 weapon and continue in high volume production for the US Army where it become the principle squad level LMG by late 42.
 
It would need an almost total redesign to accommodate the longer 30-06 round unlike the P14 rifle which was designed for a round (.276 Enfield) very close in length to the US round.
 

Deleted member 1487

It would need an almost total redesign to accommodate the longer 30-06 round unlike the P14 rifle which was designed for a round (.276 Enfield) very close in length to the US round.
Total redesign? It was 5mm longer than the British .303 or original 8mm Mauser...and the Mauser had very similar case dimensions to the .30-06 other than the length.
 
Total redesign? It was 5mm longer than the British .303 or original 8mm Mauser...and the Mauser had very similar case dimensions to the .30-06 other than the length.
It's the length that's the problem, you have to rework the mag well, receiver and gas system to deal with it. The Mag well has to be longer so the receiver has to be longer and the gas system has to give the bolt more of a whack to move the extra distance. This in turn means the return spring has to be stronger to be able to prevent the bolt being damaged or damaging the receiver. Lots of little changes that all add up.
 
IIRC Ingliss in Canada did manufacture Bren Guns chambered for 8mm Mauser for the Chinese. There are also some reports that drawings were prepared for a 30-06 receiver and magazine!
there are some claims for a 30-06 version of the T41 being made in Taiwan as well in the 1950's as well as the Italians having a go!! No confirmed sources at this stage.
 
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Deleted member 1487

It's the length that's the problem, you have to rework the mag well, receiver and gas system to deal with it. The Mag well has to be longer so the receiver has to be longer and the gas system has to give the bolt more of a whack to move the extra distance. This in turn means the return spring has to be stronger to be able to prevent the bolt being damaged or damaging the receiver. Lots of little changes that all add up.
Given the marginal difference in powder capacity it might be adjustable as it; not sure what extra whack would be needed given the increased powder capacity and likely pressure into the gas system. The bolt might not even have to move much more if they just increase the mag well size by 5mm. The receiver mods shouldn't be that significant given that they'd probably just have to lengthen the well by 5mm and BAR mags could be used until they produce a 30 rounder.
 

Deleted member 1487

IIRC Ingliss in Canada did manufacture Bren Guns chambered for 8mm Mauser for the Chinese. There are also some reports that drawings were prepared for a 30-06 receiver and magazine!
Turns out they did make a .30-06 Bren:
The Inglis version of the Bren Mk 2 chambered for the 30-06 cartridge and known as the M41 was also manufactured in Formosa in 1952.


And a .280 British version!
A small number of Inglis-made .303 Bren Mk 2 were converted post-war to fire the .280 7 mm Mk 1Z round used by the EM-2 rifle.
 
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McPherson

Banned
It would need an almost total redesign to accommodate the longer 30-06 round unlike the P14 rifle which was designed for a round (.276 Enfield) very close in length to the US round.

Just look at how the sand-heads fubared this.

Looking at the reports, it appears THREE things were at issue.
a. Clear operator head space between the ears by the Saginaw engineers who did not lab (bench) test enough and understand the fails they missed in the reverse engineering process for the new ammunition and DIFFERENT propellant.
b. Clear operator head space for the different dimensioned bullet.
c. And the different firing chamber pressures over time to operate the cyclic. This last problem is often forgotten. US propellants were 'hotter' and provided a sharper moment impulse than German ones. If you do not build to the chemistry, then you get what Army Ordnance found: jams, and broken parts. The German built guns ran fine because they started with the Mauser cartridge and built the gun to it. If you wanted a MG42 type machine gun to a 30.06 spec. then you look at the MG42 operating principle and try to build a weapon from scratch based on the principle and the 30.06. This takes a lot longer than a monkey copy of an existent weapon; but it works better because the bullet is bench fired through the contraption until the thing works. Just to make the American Mauser to the American cartridge; (Springfield 1903) took from 1898 to 1906 and involved that bench firing. The Ruger, which was a belt-fed BAR with Czech-like VZ26 bells and whistles, went from 1934 to 1942 and involved numerous modifications over the bench testing, and 8 years, to go from T10 to T23E1. And that was rejected because it would be too expensive in time and money to build for the war in progress. *(Idiots.).

Anyway; do it all wrong (Bofors, Oerlikon, Hispano Suiza, and the Navy 28mm) seems to have been an endemic American gunsmithing problem of the 1930s and 1940s.

If one sees the same damn failure modes across services, across ordnance branches and for the same exact bureaucratic reasons for well over a CENTURY, then it is a cultural problem as well as a technological one. Despite the American myth, it turns out Americans are factually actually rather lousy at designing and building guns and things that go boom in peacetime.



 
Turns out they did make a .30-06 Bren:



And a .280 British version!
I am not saying that a 30-06 Bren couldn't be built as obviously it could. What I am saying is that the US couldn't do what they did with the P14 and take over existing production facilities and start turning out a 30-06 Bren in a matter of a few months. Unlike the P14 to M1917 rifle modifications a Bren needs much more doing to it than a new barrel and bolt head. Get it wrong as the US did with the MG42, HS 404 20mm and other weapons and they just don't work.
 

Deleted member 1487

I am not saying that a 30-06 Bren couldn't be built as obviously it could. What I am saying is that the US couldn't do what they did with the P14 and take over existing production facilities and start turning out a 30-06 Bren in a matter of a few months. Unlike the P14 to M1917 rifle modifications a Bren needs much more doing to it than a new barrel and bolt head. Get it wrong as the US did with the MG42, HS 404 20mm and other weapons and they just don't work.
Alright, fair enough.
The MG42 conversion was a problem because of the tight tolerances of the design, so that it couldn't be converted to a larger cartridge without a major redesign.
 

CalBear

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You're misremembering what happened last time and apparently not understanding this time. Welcome back to my ignore list.
Sure was not the reality, there, friend . I beat you to it on the ignore list, BTW.
Just stop!

Ignore each other. Write a book together. Start a Youtube channel and debate things. All valid options. But stop nitpicking eath other and derailing threads in the process.
 

Deleted member 1487

Just stop!

Ignore each other. Write a book together. Start a Youtube channel and debate things. All valid options. But stop nitpicking eath other and derailing threads in the process.
We already did.
 
There was an interest in a 30-06 Bren from the British armoured folk who were mulling standardising on the Browning instead of the BESA. They used Brens in guarding tanks and it would make sense to be able to use either 8mm Mauser or 30-06 in their Brens depending on what armour machine gun became the standard.
 

Deleted member 1487

There was an interest in a 30-06 Bren from the British armoured folk who were mulling standardising on the Browning instead of the BESA. They used Brens in guarding tanks and it would make sense to be able to use either 8mm Mauser or 30-06 in their Brens depending on what armour machine gun became the standard.
That is something that always confused me about the Brits, if they were interested in the 1920s-early '30s standardizing with the US and wanted a non-rimmed cartridge, why not just adopt the US cartridge for the war you know is coming, especially after they opted to keep the .30-06 in the 1930s. The US was going to be supplying Britain anyway as in the last war, so why not buy the US Browning for tanks, get the .30-06 in production in Britain, and then source it for anything else needed?
 
IIRC Ingliss in Canada did manufacture Bren Guns chambered for 8mm Mauser for the Chinese. There are also some reports that drawings were prepared for a 30-06 receiver and magazine!
there are some claims for a 30-06 version of the T41 being made in Taiwan as well in the 1950's as well as the Italians having a go!! No confirmed sources at this stage.

Ingliss made BREN's for the Nationalist Chinese. Gun Jesus did a breakdown on a "sterile" 7.92 BREN, some of which were bought out of storage by the CIA for God knows what idiotic scheme in the late 1950's early 60's.

The only thing I can think of was they were using it to supply resistance fighters somewhere and wanted to imply they were being supplied by PRC from ex Nationalist stocks.
 
There is actually a good book on the subject:

The sequel is about the Soviets in 1944 and what they did differently. I don't fully agree with the author's take, but it's an interesting argument that does challenge a lot of orthodox views of war in 1944 in Europe.
Montgomery comes out of it far better than any of the American generals, including Patton. ;)
 
That is something that always confused me about the Brits, if they were interested in the 1920s-early '30s standardizing with the US and wanted a non-rimmed cartridge, why not just adopt the US cartridge for the war you know is coming, especially after they opted to keep the .30-06 in the 1930s. The US was going to be supplying Britain anyway as in the last war, so why not buy the US Browning for tanks, get the .30-06 in production in Britain, and then source it for anything else needed?
Given the USA was not in WW1 from 1914 to 1917 there was no certainty at all that the USA wold be supporting Britain in another major war it would have made more sense to change to French 7.5mm as they would definitely be involved in any continental war from the beginning not three years later. Not to mention not being over 4,000 submarine filled miles away as opposed to swimming distance. Shorter and lighter too and adequate in performance. However the OP is about a USA Bren not what the USA could sell for good or ill.
 
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