Tomcats, not people, but Tomcats.

[Atomo]

Thanks to 'TheMann' for his great thread/timeline 'Canadian Power: The Canadian Forces as a Major Power'

It got me to wondering about a specific event.

The Iranian Revolution.

In his timeline 'TheMann' gives a possible alternate outcome to the issue of Iranian Tomcats.
We all know ITTL the Canadian government was offered/made an offer for the Tomcats. We all know that the Canadian government assisting with the evacuation of US diplomats may (50-60%) have scuttled those talks.

'TheMann' makes an excellent point in his thread/timeline about what may have been more important, getting the Tomcats out of Iranian hands.

Lets say that someone from the CIA/DIA/DOD (or various 3 letter agencies of the US government) realize what the Canadians are up to and make a point of swaying that decision so that the US diplomats are not saved (which was the Canadian thing to do) so that the Tomcat deal goes forward (which was better for regional security in the long run).

We now have TTL with the Canadian Forces flying F-14 Tomcats, not CF-188 Hornets.
***Now this is not the same as 'TheMann's excellent thread/timeline. All other defense decisions are made as they were before up to this point.***
Canada's defence budget/expenditures will remain essentially the same.

How little or how much changes based on the fact that Canadians are flying these Tomcats and not Iran?

 

[NothingNow]

How little or how much changes based on the fact that Canadians are flying these Tomcats and not Iran?

A lot. Most of the Opposition to the Tomcat IOTL was "based in" (read:using as an Excuse) the Iranian operation of the Aircraft.

 

[Ming777]

And Canada gets really awesome aircraft...

 

[anon_user]

If knowledge of this arrangement leaked... bit of a political firestorm there.
***
Iran wouldn't do quite as well in the air against the Iraqis, obviously.

 

[Atomo]

If knowledge of this arrangement leaked... bit of a political firestorm there.
***
Iran wouldn't do quite as well in the air against the Iraqis, obviously.

I was wondering if anyone would get to that possibility. A political scandal driven by the nature of the deal, the push behind the deal would be nasty for political and moral reasons. I doubt all involved would have been able to be silenced either. It probably would have tainted a sweet defence procurement deal (from a financial standpoint).

 

[Ming777]

Very likely, CIA would probably bribe all involved diplomats and staff to remain quiet until all aircraft are in Canadian hands. Another forum had that happening. It would only hurt the Trudeau Government, which was in charge at the time. Win-Win!!! I also made something similar to the OP's idea in TheMann's TL thread. Perhaps the CIA provides some incentives for Canada as well.

 

[RogueBeaver]

PET making the right call on defence procurement? Was an ASB involved here?

 

[Atomo]

PET making the right call on defence procurement? Was an ASB involved here?

As long as 'Bat' refers to a device used in playing baseball yes.

For the purpose of this thought exercise lets say he had a bad day and one too many Tu-95s came over the pole... or something like that (hand wave).

 

[TheMann]

The F-14 was originally tested by the CF, where it outperformed everything except for the F-15. They wanted it, but the price was too high. Iran, by contrast, had no hope of getting parts for their 79 F-14s, and that was why Canada made the offer. They had little use for them, but Canada could get parts, and Iran could use the money for other fighters (perhaps MiG-23s or Mirage F1s) or something else for their armed forces.

The Americans would love it - a country hostile to them no longer has a bunch of examples of ultra-modern US fighters. In the Canadian Power TL, I also had the US offer to give over four new air-warfare destroyers, also ordered by the Shah but never delivered - IOTL, these became the Kidd class, and as the Maritime Command didn't have any dedicated air-warfare vessels at the time. Make the price right, and Trudeau would have gone for that, too - or just have it in the brief period when Joe Clark was PM in 1979. He had a BIG vision for the Maritime Command, and those destroyers would fit like a glove in that.

 

[Just Leo]

Does this mean that Canada Goose gets killed?

 

[NothingNow]

I'm actually thinking that this might lead to Exports of the Tomcat and maybe something like the Super Tomcat 21 or an F-14 version of the Silent Eagle going into production.

Maybe the "SilentCat" would get F119s and a beefed up version of the F-22's Radar Suite?

About the F-14 on the Export Market, I'm thinking since it is a Wonderful Interceptor, and was shown to be a good Dogfighter in skilled hands, maybe one or two other Countries besides the US and Canada adopt the F-14 (Without TF-30s, and rigged for A2G as well.) Japan seems like it might be a sure bet, as does Saudi Arabia.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Does this mean that Canada Goose gets killed?

I don't understand

 

[TheMann]

I'm actually thinking that this might lead to Exports of the Tomcat and maybe something like the Super Tomcat 21 or an F-14 version of the Silent Eagle going into production.

The RAF seriously considered buying the F-14, but found it too pricey. Japan felt the same. If you want those two to buy F-14s, you'd have to add air-to-ground capability right from the start and/or knock the price down a bit. (It was about 25% more expensive a unit than the F-15, which was better suited to the RAF and JASDF's needs, and the British pretty much got shoved into making their own planes by their politicians anyways.)

As far as the ASF-14 goes, it would would be a wicked strike fighter, but almost certainly a pricey one, and you'd have the very similar F-15E Strike Eagle to compete against, which is less complex and less expensive. If you want the ASF-14 to have exports, you'd have to convince people of its worth as being considerably better than the F-15E (tall order) or have a few more countries with big enough aircraft carriers to accommodate the Tomcat. I can see the British maintaining carriers big enough to fit Tomcats, but beyond that it gets tricky. The French could probably afford it too, but the chances of them buying fighters from the US borders on ASB territory.

Maybe the "SilentCat" would get F119s and a beefed up version of the F-22's Radar Suite?

The F-22's radar suite is one of its biggest trump cards. That's not going into the export arena for any money anytime soon. The APG-81 from the F-35, though, would probably be a good fit for the "SilentCat". The F119s are possible, but if this is designed for export I'd say there would be a few concerns about it, better probably to stick with the baddest versions of the Pratt and Whitney F100 or GE F110.

 

[Wolfman]

The RAF seriously considered buying the F-14, but found it too pricey. Japan felt the same. If you want those two to buy F-14s, you'd have to add air-to-ground capability right from the start and/or knock the price down a bit. (It was about 25% more expensive a unit than the F-15, which was better suited to the RAF and JASDF's needs, and the British pretty much got shoved into making their own planes by their politicians anyways.)

As far as the ASF-14 goes, it would would be a wicked strike fighter, but almost certainly a pricey one, and you'd have the very similar F-15E Strike Eagle to compete against, which is less complex and less expensive. If you want the ASF-14 to have exports, you'd have to convince people of its worth as being considerably better than the F-15E (tall order) or have a few more countries with big enough aircraft carriers to accommodate the Tomcat. I can see the British maintaining carriers big enough to fit Tomcats, but beyond that it gets tricky. The French could probably afford it too, but the chances of them buying fighters from the US borders on ASB territory.



The F-22's radar suite is one of its biggest trump cards. That's not going into the export arena for any money anytime soon. The APG-81 from the F-35, though, would probably be a good fit for the "SilentCat". The F119s are possible, but if this is designed for export I'd say there would be a few concerns about it, better probably to stick with the baddest versions of the Pratt and Whitney F100 or GE F110.

Mann, between myself and Matt Wiser, we've probably got the market on this forum for Maverick's work cornered where the Tomcat is concerned... such as this Canuck Tomcat...

 

[NothingNow]

The RAF seriously considered buying the F-14, but found it too pricey. Japan felt the same. If you want those two to buy F-14s, you'd have to add air-to-ground capability right from the start and/or knock the price down a bit. (It was about 25% more expensive a unit than the F-15, which was better suited to the RAF and JASDF's needs, and the British pretty much got shoved into making their own planes by their politicians anyways.)

Well yeah, I Mentioned the need for Air to Ground capability in order to really get sales. A Laser Designator pod is an obvious necessity, even if it's just a Pave Penny.

The F-22's radar suite is one of its biggest trump cards. That's not going into the export arena for any money anytime soon. The APG-81 from the F-35, though, would probably be a good fit for the "SilentCat". The F119s are possible, but if this is designed for export I'd say there would be a few concerns about it, better probably to stick with the baddest versions of the Pratt and Whitney F100 or GE F110.

Yeah, the APG-81 and/or the Eurofighter's CAPTOR radar would make sense for the Export market (Depending on the buyer and their preferences of course.) The F-22's radar, if installed on the F-14, might be a USN/USMC exclusive, or possibly sold to the Canadians as well. But yeah, sticking to the F100 or F110 makes the most sense, although the F119's super-cruise capabilities might be worth the cost, depending on the buyer.

 

[Atomo]

I agree that the Tomcat probably would have stayed with the GE F110 family of engines.

Due to attrition from the TF30s I could see the upgrade happening sooner rather than later with the Canadian Tomcats.

As to Air to Ground capability I think a small capability would have been created almost immediately. Small meaning iron bombs and cluster munitions. Later addtions and rebuilds into F-14D(R)s may come if the money is there and once Brian Mulroney gets in I imagine it would happen.
The political impact of how they were obtained could taint any future upgrade programs though.

 

[Atomo]

Just watched 'Top Gun' and I had to wonder.
I have read that the movie increased USN recruiting in the years after it was released.
In a TL where Canada had Tomcats would it happen to the Canadian Forces as well?

 

[MacCaulay]

Iran wouldn't do quite as well in the air against the Iraqis, obviously.

That's the part people don't normally think about. They're usually too preoccupied with visions of F-14s with Maple Leaf roundels.


The IRIAF would be limited to it's F-4 Phantom II units of various marques, which in OTL carried on the brunt of the air war anyway. I think the Iranians would probably have to end up spending that cash on F-7 Airguards from China in the late 80s to supplement their losses: something to cushion the attrition and lack of spares they suffered.