The Whale has Wings

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Wasn't that deployment to Hong Kong -- fortuitously averted by problems with the ship's engines TTL -- rather an outlyer from the overall wider pattern in itself?


Yes, although that Canadian unit is shortly to arrive in Australia....
The lack of snow may confuse them....:p:D

Probably the main reason for keeping the Canadians concentrated in the UK was twofold - easy supply route over the NA, and they were large enough to form an Army, as opposed to being included in British units.
 
There's a Pathan Battalion in Singapore at the time as well, if you really want to make things nasty.

To Quote Mr Kipling (the writer not the baker) in The Young British Soldier

When you're wounded and left on Afganistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll on your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

The Japanese would have a very good reason for not being taken prisoner with Pathans near by.
 
Good looking and future queen of Great Britain and the Commonwealth etc etc (and Wales)

Princess Elizabeth, Age 16.jpg
 
OKm little bit of update for you guys...

I will be on holiday for a couple of weeks from later this week, so updates will be slow (I wont have my notes to hand, or even internet access some of the time).

"Holiday"?? I wasn't aware we allowed authors of popular timelines to do that sort of thing. ;)
 
I thought the Canadians were pretty maniacal about keeping their troops in the UK? That is, except for raids in Norway, the French coast, and D-Day? Is this OTL?

There was no restriction on keeping Canadian troops in one locale or another. What the Canadian government was adamant about was that Canadians would serve under Canadian command in Canadian formations and that those formations be as large as practical (ie no parceling of Canadian battalions or brigades to UK divisions).

Every time Canada decided to relax this requirement (Hong Kong, Dieppe) it wound up a disaster and thus reinforced the feeling that only a Canadian army would treat Canadian soldiers as something other than cannon fodder.
 
Yet I know of NO foreign deployment of Canadian Army troops in WWII outside of NW Europe, Hong Kong, and the Aleutians Campaign. WAS there any? If not, that would suggest that there was an understanding, at the very least. Like South Africa's restriction to Africa, and Australia's restriction of the deployments of their Militia until late 1942.

Sicily and Italy, which are not NW Europe and which indicate that they were available for operations in the Med. Canada was reluctant to break up 1st Canadian Army but did send an infantry division and a tank brigade for the invasion of Sicily. By the time Italy proper was invaded it had grown to a Corps in size.
 
Good looking and future queen of Great Britain and the Commonwealth etc etc (and Wales)

Her Majesty was quite the looker back in the day. And Camilla was not that bad when she was younger. Let's see how good all of us look when we are in our 60's.
 
MacArthur sure does make a great chew toy, doesn't he? Especially since no one today will seriously defend his behavior. But outside of him and his Bataan Gang, I can't think of any flag officers who were a problem in the SW Pacific in terms of Allied cooperation.
Yeah, well knowing that the senior flag officer is seriously belittling your part in the war is really annoying.

Since the LOCs and supply were so extended for operations from the USA to Europe and the SW Pacific, priorities had to be made. PX policy is the same in the USA. If the Americans had more $$$, they are going to get preferential treatment. Again, don't blame Washington. Blame London, Ottawa, Canberra, and Wellington.
Ah, so long supply lines would explain why the PX stores were stocking chocolate and stockings in addition to food.

Well, since the local soldiers chose to do this in their own lands, the problem was theirs'.
Hm, so lets see, you've got these rich, racist (yes, it was a hypocritical view sometimes, but that doesn't make it any more excusable) Americans on your land, and you're just supposed to stand there and take it?

I think we are talking in circles. We both agree about MacArthur (and I would think you would agree about Patton). But beyond the Bataan Gang (which I think you would also agree about) I don't know of any specific "American Arrogance" examples.
MacArthur and Patton are plenty bad enough. Also, the American MPs were more than a bit arrogant too. Read up about the Battle of Brisbane.
 
Ah, so long supply lines would explain why the PX stores were stocking chocolate and stockings in addition to food.

Hm, so lets see, you've got these rich, ... Americans on your land, and you're just supposed to stand there and take it?
Jeez, can we give this a rest already? Lots of young men from the richest country in the world got sent abroad to various much poorer countries where they get paid five times as much as local soldiers, and as much as the local lawyers and doctors earn. All the locals simultaneously sneer at them and are desperate for their money. It's not like its never happened before or since. The WW2 flavour of this was pretty comprehensively covered in 1943 by George Orwell, no less (Dec 3 & 17). Perhaps if anyone else has something to add that Mr Orwell missed, they could please take it to a new thread and not clutter up this one?
 
I have an idea that there might be a jungle version of the LRDG/SAS starting up soon here. Would be interesting with a mix of Gurkha's, Maori, Pathans, and enough Australians and UK folks to make it interesting.
 
Her Majesty was quite the looker back in the day. And Camilla was not that bad when she was younger. Let's see how good all of us look when we are in our 60's.

Have to agree that the future queen was a babe in her day. No swimsuit photos? Such a shame.

Camilla also had her moments, and I suspect an early marriage to Charles would have been much happier for both of them.
 

Garrison

Donor
Have to agree that the future queen was a babe in her day. No swimsuit photos? Such a shame.

Camilla also had her moments, and I suspect an early marriage to Charles would have been much happier for both of them.

I must point out that with this different TL Elizabeth might not marry Philip so there may not be a Charles. I leave it up to you how you feel about that...:rolleyes:
 
Camilla also had her moments, and I suspect an early marriage to Charles would have been much happier for both of them.

Interestingly in the context of this thread Wikipedia mentions a theory that Mountbatten arranged for Charles to be posted overseas to break up his romance with Camilla and allow Mounty to push for a royal engagement with one of his own nieces, Amanda Knatchbull.
 
Feb 1st

The Soviet Army continues its offensive throughout February but with diminishing success as German resistance stiffens with the arrival of reinforcements. Further efforts to break through to Leningrad and Sevastopol are futile, but some success is achieved in other sectors. Soviet forces in the Crimea are reinforced.

On Ambon Island, the Japanese capture 10 Australian soldiers and bayonet them to death. The Japanese commander says the POWs would be "a drag" on his advance. This is witnessed by two Australian soldiers hiding in the jungle; they will later escape and get back to allied territory to report this. A growing number of similar incidents have been reported in various actions, but there is reluctance among the staff to believe that the Japanese will act like this. However as more reports are confirmed, the belief is gaining ground, and the troops are already aware of the stories.

Task Force Eight ( Halsey), formed around the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, raids the Marshall Islands concentrating on Kwajalein and Wotje, with the heavy cruiser USS Chester bombarding Maleolap Atoll.

At Kwajalein, SBD Dauntlesses and TBD Devastators from USS Enterprise sink a transport and damage the light cruiser HIJMS Katori, submarine HIJMS I-23, a minelayer, an auxiliary netlayer, an auxiliary submarine chaser, a submarine depot ship, an oiler, a tanker, and an army cargo ship; in the bombing of shore installations, Rear Admiral Sukiyoshi (Commander Sixth Base Force) dies in combat when an SBD scores a direct hit on his headquarters.

Off Wotje, gunfire from heavy cruisers USS Northampton and USS Salt Lake City sink a gunboat while the destroyer USS Dunlap shells and sinks an auxiliary submarine chaser.

Japanese retaliatory air attacks by six Mitsubishi G3M of the Chitose Kokutai on TF 8 results in damage to USS Enterprise (near-miss of a crashing land attack plane) and heavy cruiser USS Chester (by bomb dropped by carrier fighter).

Three SBDs are shot down over Roi Island by Mitsuibishi A5M Claude fighters and one “Claude” is shot down by a SBD gunner

TF 17 ( Fletcher), formed around aircraft carrier USS Yorktown, raids the Gilbert Islands targeting enemy installations on Jaluit, Makin, and Mili.

Aircraft from USS Yorktown cause less damage than the attacks on the Marshall Islands, due to a scarcity of targets at the objective; nevertheless, SBDs bomb and strafe a gunboat at Makin and destroy two Kawanishi H6K at anchor, while SBDs bomb and strafe a cargo ship at Jaluit.

TF 11 (Brown), formed around aircraft carrier USS Lexington supports the operations from the vicinity of Christmas Island in the Line Islands.

The carrier USS Ticonderoga arrives at Pearl Harbor to join the use carrier force in the Pacific. At the moment the USN is deploying three single-carrier task forces to cause the maximum disruption; Nimitz is considering adding the Ticonderoga to one TF in the hope the Japanese might respond as if against a single carrier (he does not have enough escorts to form a fourth independent task force in any case). In the next few months it is hoped to have six fleet carriers in the Pacific, forming three Task Forces. He is also expecting more Wildcat fighters so the fighter complement of the airgroups can be increased, and the first Corsair squadrons are expected for lasn-based operations in a few weeks.

A serious setback to British intelligence in the Battle of the Atlantic has taken place. The U-boats in the Atlantic have adopted a new cipher, Triton, linking them directly to Admiral Dönitz's headquarters in Paris. Triton has an additional rotor to the three used in the normal Hydra cipher. Bletchley Park's Bombe, the decpihering machine developed by the mathematician Alan Turing for cracking the codes, only has three rotors and hence cannot tackle Triton. The change is not because the Germans know that the British are reading Enigma but is due to Dönitz's wish to exert tighter control over the operations if his wolf packs so that they will sink more ships. Also, the ciphers used by the U-boats training in the Baltic (Tetis) and in coastal waters (Hydra) remain unchanged.

The Admiralty's submarine tracking room can still monitor each newly-commissioned U-boat and those entering and leaving the Bay of Biscay and Norwegian waters. The inability to read Triton means that the Admiralty no longer knows the intentions of the U-boats operating in the Atlantic. It will be more difficult to route convoys to evade the packs. Fortunately the supply of escort carriers and conversions means it is rare now for a convoy to sail without air protection, but it is still anticipated that having to fight them through will mean greater losses.

The Japanese carrier striking force (Akagi, Kaga and Zuikaku) leave Truk to attempt to intercept the US carrier force raiding the Marshall Islands. The pursuit is abandoned the next day.

Feb 2nd

HQ of the USAAF’s 49th Pursuit Group (Interceptor), with its three subordinate squadrons, arrives at Melbourne, Victoria, from the U.S. with P-40s. The aircraft are in crates and must be assembled and the vast majority of the pilots do not have the skills to survive in combat and must undergo combat training. The first squadron will not fly their first mission until March.

The Japanese launch their first air raid on Port Moresby in New Guinea, in preparation for a planned amphibious assault.

The RAF in Malaya present a report which points out the surprising weakness in Japanese air power since the early battles in December. While the RAF has been resupplied with aircraft, the Japanese air force seems to be growing steadily weaker. This is surprising, as with its sources of aircraft much closer, the staff had expected the opposite. What they do not know is the terribly low aircraft production in Japan. In the period Dec-March they will only build some 700 fighters and bombers. To put this into perspective, Australia's normal production is 60 Sparrowhawk and 40 Beaufighters a month, and with the current scare has raised this (albeit temporarily) by 50%. In addition, the British were supplying Russia with some 120 Hurricanes a month which have been diverted. these two minor sources alone are over half again the Japanese production. The RAF are convinced that the shortage in Malaya is because they are building up somewhere else, their best guess being in the DEI, although there is also a possibility they are planning action in Burma or to the east. They simply cannot believe that the Japanese aircraft production is so low.

The Japanese begin a combined, concentrated attack against Australian troops at Laha Airdrome on Ambon Island using infantry, dive-bombers, fighter planes, warships and artillery; the Japanese capture the airfield by mid-morning. Later in the day, the surviving Australians at Laha approached the Japanese with surrender negotiations.
 
Maybe if Mountbatten had been less obsessed with getting his familly on the throne and done his job as First Sea Lord and Chief of the Defence Staff the Royal Navy might be in better shape. How a man with the nerve to claim after the death of King George VI that "The house of Mountbatten now reigns" wasn't slung out of the country I'll never know.
 

Hyperion

Banned
I know Ticonderoga and Hornet are still working up.

Where is the USS Wasp? I though she had already been sent to the Atlantic?

Also, are any modern South Dakota or North Carolina class battleships in the Pacific right now? Given the lack of German and Italian warships, I would think North Carolina at least should be there by now, unless King or Stark or whoever is wanting to send a massive force all at once?
 
Its not true to say the British were 'always' of the assumption the Americans were 'green' and incompetent. (1) Certainly it was true in the first part of the war (for the US Army), (2) and at that time they were quite correct, criticising US junior leadership and many of the senior officers. (3) By 1944 this had changed. (4) The British were also very critical of a lot of their own officers as well... (5)

1) My sincerest apologies for the use of the word 'always'. Your TL is an outstandingly well-written and organized work. I am afraid that I have been guilty of transference.:eek: As you know, I am a survivor of...*ahem*:p:rolleyes:

2) Green, yes. Incompetent, no.

3) Problem was, how much recognition was there of competence early on where it DID exist? I know that the Aussies, frex, were contemptuous of MacArthur and his Bataan Gang, but AIUI, far less so of his line commanders. Maybe because the Aussies and Kiwis had a lot of experience in dealing with arrogance themselves?:p

4) Not to everyone's mind. To some people, the incompetents had simply been promoted to levels where they could no longer be relieved. Like most of the US Army officers in NW Europe above two-star rank.:rolleyes: Read Monty's memoirs if you want an idea of what I mean.

5) Yes. I freely admit that. But it tended to go along the lines of condemnations of PERSONAL incompetence (Hi Ritchie!), rather than suggestions of institutional, cultural, or historical failings.

It wasn't helped by the US Army's arrogance of assuming that with a tiny troop level compared to the Imperial forces they could just dictate what should be done, (6) and at least at the start of the war a stunning unreality as to what was possible. (7) Again, they learned in time, but Washington at least kept that arrogance to the end.(8)(9)

Actually, this is something that can be very evenly ladled out to both the British and Americans.

6) Quite simply, YES. It was very arrogant of the US leadership to assume the ability (much less right!:eek:) to have such a dominant role so early in the war. BUT, if you look at the strategic war conferences between Britain and America starting with Churchill's first visit to Washington in Christmas 1941 all the way to Potsdam, a pattern emerges. Specifically, the British pretty much get everything they wanted all the way through to the start of the Teheran Conference. By then, the US Chiefs had finally learned the game, AND had enough chips on the table to be taken seriously.

7) See my post about Sledgehammer.:rolleyes::eek::(

8) It was arrogance at the start. But just as at the beginning of America's entry in the war, Britain's views of America were not arrogant, but "merely recognition of fact", so too the circumstances to be found on VJ-Day. It's just that America's economic situation was far better on 12/41 than Britain's was on 9/45. The Americans could at least honestly say that their military position as of 12/41 could improve exponentially.

As long as the Empire had the gravitas to determine policies and strategies between themselves and America, they would. As time went on, America's industry turned to war, the nation mobilized, and deployed for battle. The more this became true, the more they could effectively influence policy, and the less Britain could. But it didn't happen overnight; it was a very gradual process. Mostly determined by $$$ than anything else.

9) Were the British Chiefs any less so?:confused: Especially when the Yanks weren't listening?:D

Kings anti-British feelings ceratinly affected the early US A/S efforts (his own men told him what was needed, they were ignored as well)

We all agree on that.:mad::eek:
 
I know Ticonderoga and Hornet are still working up.

Where is the USS Wasp? I though she had already been sent to the Atlantic?

Also, are any modern South Dakota or North Carolina class battleships in the Pacific right now? Given the lack of German and Italian warships, I would think North Carolina at least should be there by now, unless King or Stark or whoever is wanting to send a massive force all at once?

Ticonderoga has finished working up

Hornet and Wasp will be on their way to the Pacific soon
 
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