The Reformation Starts in Burgundy?

[Old1812]

I usually try to keep my PODs relatively straightforward, but this one will get a bit more involved. For this, let's assume that Charles the Bold and Margaret of York have a son in the 1470s, with this son going on to inherit the duchy of Burgundy, probably some time in the 1480s-1490s. For simplicity's sake, we'll say the house of York remains in control of England.

In about 1510, a French (or sufficiently pro-French) cardinal is elected Pope - Georges d'Amboise is a likely candidate. A few years later, a charismatic Flemish priest begins criticizing the Roman Catholic Church, and begins to attract interest. Considering France and Burgundy are likely still at odds, what would happen if Charles II of Burgundy takes it upon himself to protect, and possibly even promote this priest?

 

[SavoyTruffle]

This is rather plausible IMO. The Reformation struck a chord the most with:
* Northern Europeans dissatisfied with the Southern European stranglehold over the Papacy and important posts within the Church
* Educated middle classes and up whose humanist ideas clashed with the more conservative factions within the Church
* Leaders who saw an opportunity to clash against rival powers or domineering overlords (or why the vast majority of secular rulers within the Empire embraced the Reformation)

Burgundy at this point is rich and mercantile in outlook, so that's Condition #2. You could squint and assume Condition #1 is true here, especially if we have a French pope. Condition #3 would ensue if Burgundy acts as an influential backer to the other electorates as a counterweight to Austria (and later Spain).

 

[Old1812]

Trade between England and Burgundy make it a virtual certainty that this Burgundian Protestantism will start to reach England pretty quickly. Their royal houses will be linked also, assuming Edward V or Richard of Shrewsbury succeed Edward IV, Charles II is the first cousin of the King of England, and possibly a brother-in-law as well, as a daughter of Edward IV will be a likely choice of bride for him as well.

Protestant ideas will arrive in Germany pretty soon as well, and likely still be quite attractive to the princes.

 

[Arariboia Guamá]

Burgundy was fairly influential in its time, could it cause a stronger, wider reformation?

 

[Old1812]

Burgundy was fairly influential in its time, could it cause a stronger, wider reformation?

This was something I was considering. A Yorkist England and surviving Burgundy likely mean a resumption of the Hundred Years War (though I could still see Charles VIII making power plays in Italy). A French Pope in this context may make Protestantism more attractive to England and Germany than it was IOTL.

One idea I had was the French monarch has enough of a lull between fighting England and Burgundy to invade Italy and force the election of a French Pope.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

The million dollar question here is whether Austria and/or Spain (which, it must be noted, might not unite into a Habsburg super-realm here due to Valois-Burgundy still extant) may want in on the anti-French alliance given their interests in Italy.

And what would this Burgundian Protestantism look like? Luther of course had a significant impact on the doctrinal aspects, so our turbulent Flemish priest would have an impact of his own.

 

[Old1812]

The million dollar question here is whether Austria and/or Spain (which, it must be noted, might not unite into a Habsburg super-realm here due to Valois-Burgundy still extant) may want in on the anti-French alliance given their interests in Italy.

And what would this Burgundian Protestantism look like? Luther of course had a significant impact on the doctrinal aspects, so our turbulent Flemish priest would have an impact of his own.

The HRE will likely be backing England and Burgundy, much as it did during the Hundred Years War. It's possible you could see the Habsburgs become interested in Protestantism, depending on the whims of whoever is ruling at the time, especially if their prospects of installing a more pro-Imperial Pope aren't great.

Spain (Castile and Aragon I suppose, if you're feeling pedantic) is tricky, and while they are likely opposed to France, I can't see Protestantism faring any better there ITTL than it did historically - same goes for Portugal.

As far as the theology of "Flemish Priest-ism," I think you need it to be relatively moderate for it to catch on among the nobility and merchants, much as Lutheranism was IOTL. You will still very likely get a Radical Reformation soon after the Magisterial Reformation gets going, and how Flemish Priest responds will be quite important.

This also applies to OTL's Reformation, but it would be interesting to see an equivalent to the French Wars of Religion occur in England and/or Germany, if one part of the ruling house remain Roman Catholics, while another converts to Protestantism.

 

[RedKing]

If the Burgundians outright embrace alt Protestantism, they can expect the wrath of France, who will no doubt attempt to ‘restore’ the true faith to Burgundy. England would probably continue to ally with Burgundy, but that partnership would be more strained.

 

[Old1812]

If the Burgundians outright embrace alt Protestantism, they can expect the wrath of France, who will no doubt attempt to ‘restore’ the true faith to Burgundy. England would probably continue to ally with Burgundy, but that partnership would be more strained.

A lot of this may depend on the disposition of the English monarch and nobility toward Protestantism, and how disruptive England's Protestants are.

 

[Mildtryth]

I'm wondering more about what's going to happen after that - providing that the Valois-Angoulêmes die out in 1589 and the Bourbons go protestant as in OTL, you'll end up with two protestant claimants to the French throne, since the Valois-Burgundies are next in line for the throne.

 

[mrmandias]

Ooh, Aristocratic Catholic French Republic?

 

[Emperor Lucas I]

This is rather plausible IMO. The Reformation struck a chord the most with:
* Northern Europeans dissatisfied with the Southern European stranglehold over the Papacy and important posts within the Church
* Educated middle classes and up whose humanist ideas clashed with the more conservative factions within the Church
* Leaders who saw an opportunity to clash against rival powers or domineering overlords (or why the vast majority of secular rulers within the Empire embraced the Reformation)

Burgundy at this point is rich and mercantile in outlook, so that's Condition #2. You could squint and assume Condition #1 is true here, especially if we have a French pope. Condition #3 would ensue if Burgundy acts as an influential backer to the other electorates as a counterweight to Austria (and later Spain).

Ergo - all Burgundy needs is one person - with strong personality and enough charisma - as a potential leader.

If the Burgundians outright embrace alt Protestantism, they can expect the wrath of France, who will no doubt attempt to ‘restore’ the true faith to Burgundy. England would probably continue to ally with Burgundy, but that partnership would be more strained.

It can go either way with England. They can either be under strong Burgundian influence or- assuming that The King's Great Matter will be butterflied away - again try their luck with expansion on continent.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

I usually try to keep my PODs relatively straightforward, but this one will get a bit more involved. For this, let's assume that Charles the Bold and Margaret of York have a son in the 1470s, with this son going on to inherit the duchy of Burgundy, probably some time in the 1480s-1490s. For simplicity's sake, we'll say the house of York remains in control of England.

This is rather plausible IMO. The Reformation struck a chord the most with:
* Northern Europeans dissatisfied with the Southern European stranglehold over the Papacy and important posts within the Church
* Educated middle classes and up whose humanist ideas clashed with the more conservative factions within the Church
* Leaders who saw an opportunity to clash against rival powers or domineering overlords (or why the vast majority of secular rulers within the Empire embraced the Reformation)

As far as the theology of "Flemish Priest-ism," I think you need it to be relatively moderate for it to catch on among the nobility and merchants, much as Lutheranism was IOTL. You will still very likely get a Radical Reformation soon after the Magisterial Reformation gets going, and how Flemish Priest responds will be quite important.

This also applies to OTL's Reformation, but it would be interesting to see an equivalent to the French Wars of Religion occur in England and/or Germany, if one part of the ruling house remain Roman Catholics, while another converts to Protestantism.

*starts to take notes for my burgundian tl with a surviving son of Charles the Bold and a Yorkist england* This can become something great...

 

[Old1812]

*starts to take notes for my burgundian tl with a surviving son of Charles the Bold and a Yorkist england* This can become something great...

I'm thinking about using this myself for my TL with a daughter of Edward of Westminster and Anne Neville, but I can't wait to see if you decide to use this as well!

 

[BlueFlowwer]

I'm thinking about using this myself for my TL with a daughter of Edward of Westminster and Anne Neville, but I can't wait to see if you decide to use this as well!

We'll compare notes!

 

[DanMcCollum]

So a thought: As much as I'm usually opposed to timelines with a GREATER reformation (I'm a good Catholic boy at heart. LOL) I think there's actually some really interesting ideas that can be played with here. I could see the ruling house actually coming around to it pretty quickly - legitimacy or new kingdoms during this era stemmed from the papacy and the HRE. By embracing a Protestant faith, you've removed one of the key institutions holding Burgundy back from being accepted as a fully fledged Kingdom in it's own right. Infact, I'd suspect that one of the first acts taken after taking the plunge into converting, would be a royal crowning for the newly styled King of Burgundy.

Also, there's the whole question about what kind of Protestantism is at play here. Will it be full blow, or will we see a compromise of sorts which sees the establishment of a Church of Burgundy which is more on the Anglican model with the new King as its head. If this Church proves popular, either way, it will be a major source of legitimacy for the Burgundian lands - since they contain so many different languages and ethnicities, loyalty to the Church and Crown could be the real unifying factor that holds the Kingdom together.

 

[Clandango]

How do we think this effects the Swiss? Seems their own reformation kicked off in 1522 when a man fed sausages to some exhausted workers for dinner during Lent. Then the man was arrested despite not eating the meat himself, there was some big speech about how the Bible didn’t man eating meat for Lent and Lent was about what the individual chose to give up (and considering Italians could easily eat fish and olive oil, while those in colder areas needed meat and dairy) and it and some other stuff was popular with the people. I imagine the stuff with Burgundy might be more like Anglicanism, Gallicism, or some strands of Lutherism where the church is under the patronage of the monarch. What do we think of the lands of the Prince-Bishops of Liege and Utrecht here?