The Need for Speed: Technology Thread
- Thread starter Delta Force
- Start date
Very good, keep going... returning to lurking
Yes, good indeed... Though a Crusader without guns ain't no Crusader! Or so many people I work with would say. It's the last, true gunfighter, after all, and many on the Navy aviation engineering side remember it well. As to the Arrow... this reality makes it all the more likely it would be developed, I guess, but also expands the competition it would have by a huge amount as well, so it will be interesting to see how it works out.
Bump, Just want to say that I have enjoyed this TL and hope that you continue it DF.
Just some questions:
Have you thought about some cultural butterflies thanks to the continuation of the Cold War, continued mis-trust of the PRC, possible use of WMDs in the Second Korean War, the Golden Age mentality, the delay in computer tech, etc?
Have you plotted out more of the Second Korean War any further and would such a conflict mean a reunification between the two Koreas? How does this conflict effect the rest of Asia?
How do events in Africa and Middle East unfold as well as the Space Race?
Again hope you continue Delta Force.
Best Regards,
Michael
Just some questions:
Have you thought about some cultural butterflies thanks to the continuation of the Cold War, continued mis-trust of the PRC, possible use of WMDs in the Second Korean War, the Golden Age mentality, the delay in computer tech, etc?
Have you plotted out more of the Second Korean War any further and would such a conflict mean a reunification between the two Koreas? How does this conflict effect the rest of Asia?
How do events in Africa and Middle East unfold as well as the Space Race?
Again hope you continue Delta Force.
Best Regards,
Michael
Delta Force
Banned
The timeline is not dead, I just haven't had much of a chance to work on it in the past few weeks and working on one of my nation sim projects. I may actually halt progress on moving the timeline forward once I get back to work on it because I want to explore some political and cultural events in it. I will likely spin that off into another thread and update it to approximately the mid-1960s before going forward with things.
The Second Korean War of this timeline will see a reunification of the Koreas, but the country will have a lot of rebuilding to do. There might also be limited usage of tactical nuclear weapons by the United States in retaliation for DPRK WMD attacks and to send a message to the PRC. There won't be anything like the leveling of Pyongyang, but there may be tactical nuclear attacks against large DPRK units.
I haven't really worked out how events in Africa and the Middle East will work out, or how the Space Race will playout. The Shah might stay in power longer and spaceplanes might be more common (more familiar and easier for a jet pilot to control).
The RCAF is going to be on the front lines of the Cold War for a greater period of time in this timeline, so it will remain large well into the 1980s. The 1980s will have a lot of butterflies as well without concern for high energy prices and the delayed development of computers. In return that means no emphasis on stealth and less capable BVR missiles and radars, so the Soviets and their emphasis on maneuverability and guns will have an edge coming into the 1970s and 1980s.
Delta Force
Banned
Drawing the Bow
The venerable CF-100 Canuck was the first interceptor of Canadian design, entering
service in 1952. Despite its simplistic design, the Canuck was the workhorse of
Canada’s early NORAD operations, with later marks being equipped with air to air
missiles. The last aircraft was retired in the early 1980s after service as a research
aircraft.
The Avro CF-105 Arrow was the second interceptor of Canadian design to enter production, following the earlier CF-100 Canuck. Much as the earlier CF-100 had shared the avionics of the F-94 Starfire, the CF-105 was originally intended to utilize the Hughes MA-1 fire control radar of the F-106 Delta Dart, as well as the Pratt & Whitney J75. With the cancelation of the F-106 program the Arrow was at risk of becoming a technological orphan before it even entered service, as both the MA-1 and J75 production lines ceased operation. Fortunately, the Orenda Iroquois was always intended for later mark Arrows and development of the engine was accelerated for earlier availability.
The Orenda Iroquois remains the most powerful fighter engine in the world over 50
years after its first run. It is capable of 40,000 lbf wet thrust and was the first aircraft
production engine to make extensive use of titanium and other lightweight materials.
The Iroquois was the most powerful and advanced engine in the world in the late 1950s, achieving 30,000 lbf wet thrust in early versions. The thrust was further increased in later variants, with the Iroquois Mark III reaching 40,000 lbf wet thrust in 1961, a record that stands today for fighter aircraft engines. Despite the engine’s great power it weighed only 4,650 pounds due to Orenda’s pioneering use of titanium and other lightweight metals, giving even Mark I engines a better power to weight ratio than the F-108’s J93 engines.
The Avro Arrow featured Canada’s first domestic radar, the powerful Ferranti-Packard
Blue Owl. The pictured radar set was used in early development and is now displayed
in the Canada Aviation and Space Museum.
Avro had a more difficult time finding a replacement for the MA-1, as American regulators were unwilling to license the system to Canada, fearing the loss of American electronics technologies. Faced with the daunting prospect of developing an advanced radar system independently, the future of the Arrow seemed bleak, even coming close to cancellation by Prime Minister Pearson as cost overruns mounted and threatened planned social programs. Fortunately for the Arrow program, the United Kingdom’s own interceptor program was experiencing greater difficulty, with no aircraft capable of matching the performance of the Soviet Myasishchev M-50 bomber expected in service before 1962. In contrast, the Avro Arrow was already surpassing performance expectations, had excellent short field performance, and possessed significant engine and airframe growth potential. Avro was awarded a major Royal Air Force contract for CF-105 aircraft, but most importantly for the future of the program was granted licenses for radar and electronics systems developed for the BAC TSR-2 program. Combined with Avro’s newly developed fly-by-wire system, the Arrow’s avionics were as innovative as its engines. Within a few short years Canada had gone from largely license producing American and British designs to developing an aircraft superior to anything in the world.
-----
This is part 1 of Avro’s update. There will likely be at least one additional update for the Arrow, as well as another for Avro’s special projects (lenticular vehicles, SSTs, etc.). My initial round of updates for all the countries is only supposed to run through the early to mid-1960s, but Avro and the Arrow had a lot of potential. Since I’m saving them from bankruptcy in this timeline I figure the company deserves the extra explanation.
The venerable CF-100 Canuck was the first interceptor of Canadian design, entering
service in 1952. Despite its simplistic design, the Canuck was the workhorse of
Canada’s early NORAD operations, with later marks being equipped with air to air
missiles. The last aircraft was retired in the early 1980s after service as a research
aircraft.
The Avro CF-105 Arrow was the second interceptor of Canadian design to enter production, following the earlier CF-100 Canuck. Much as the earlier CF-100 had shared the avionics of the F-94 Starfire, the CF-105 was originally intended to utilize the Hughes MA-1 fire control radar of the F-106 Delta Dart, as well as the Pratt & Whitney J75. With the cancelation of the F-106 program the Arrow was at risk of becoming a technological orphan before it even entered service, as both the MA-1 and J75 production lines ceased operation. Fortunately, the Orenda Iroquois was always intended for later mark Arrows and development of the engine was accelerated for earlier availability.
The Orenda Iroquois remains the most powerful fighter engine in the world over 50
years after its first run. It is capable of 40,000 lbf wet thrust and was the first aircraft
production engine to make extensive use of titanium and other lightweight materials.
The Iroquois was the most powerful and advanced engine in the world in the late 1950s, achieving 30,000 lbf wet thrust in early versions. The thrust was further increased in later variants, with the Iroquois Mark III reaching 40,000 lbf wet thrust in 1961, a record that stands today for fighter aircraft engines. Despite the engine’s great power it weighed only 4,650 pounds due to Orenda’s pioneering use of titanium and other lightweight metals, giving even Mark I engines a better power to weight ratio than the F-108’s J93 engines.
The Avro Arrow featured Canada’s first domestic radar, the powerful Ferranti-Packard
Blue Owl. The pictured radar set was used in early development and is now displayed
in the Canada Aviation and Space Museum.
Avro had a more difficult time finding a replacement for the MA-1, as American regulators were unwilling to license the system to Canada, fearing the loss of American electronics technologies. Faced with the daunting prospect of developing an advanced radar system independently, the future of the Arrow seemed bleak, even coming close to cancellation by Prime Minister Pearson as cost overruns mounted and threatened planned social programs. Fortunately for the Arrow program, the United Kingdom’s own interceptor program was experiencing greater difficulty, with no aircraft capable of matching the performance of the Soviet Myasishchev M-50 bomber expected in service before 1962. In contrast, the Avro Arrow was already surpassing performance expectations, had excellent short field performance, and possessed significant engine and airframe growth potential. Avro was awarded a major Royal Air Force contract for CF-105 aircraft, but most importantly for the future of the program was granted licenses for radar and electronics systems developed for the BAC TSR-2 program. Combined with Avro’s newly developed fly-by-wire system, the Arrow’s avionics were as innovative as its engines. Within a few short years Canada had gone from largely license producing American and British designs to developing an aircraft superior to anything in the world.
-----
This is part 1 of Avro’s update. There will likely be at least one additional update for the Arrow, as well as another for Avro’s special projects (lenticular vehicles, SSTs, etc.). My initial round of updates for all the countries is only supposed to run through the early to mid-1960s, but Avro and the Arrow had a lot of potential. Since I’m saving them from bankruptcy in this timeline I figure the company deserves the extra explanation.
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Nice to see this TL back again. And Avro saved from bankruptcy. That's going to have some major effects down the line.
Now, it's got rough short performance. Get it together, man. People are reading this stuff.
Enjoying this timeline DF. You're right, Jetpunk is a good way of describing it. Lots of shiny aluminium and glowing hot exhausts. Nice to visualise.
Delta Force
Banned
Having searched the site it would appear this is the first jetpunk timeline. The term has only been mentioned 9 times in the history of the site, although I guess this is going to be the 10th time. Looks like I've invented a new genre, or at least I'm the first to use the term (I remember a timeline dealing with similar topics earlier). Nice to see you are enjoying the timeline, although it does seem to be a bit niche right now. I'm hoping the more event centered offshoot of this thread will help draw in a wider audience interested in the political, economic, and cultural developments.
It's a glamorous thread to be sure. Air hostesses, I see air hostesses.
A magazine type article describing the air fighting over Korea would be cool.
A magazine type article describing the air fighting over Korea would be cool.
It's a glamorous thread to be sure. Air hostesses, I see air hostesses.
I just see Orenda engines with 40,000 lb of thrust. What's wrong with me?
Not really, no. The atmosphere above about 28 km is unsuitable to run an airbreathing engine off of--and you need to hit 185 km in height to reach orbit. What's worse, you hit a maximum speed of about Mach 6 even with a theoretical scramjet--a realistic ramjet is more likely to make about Mach 3 or 4. That's about 1 km/s, which sounds fast because it is--but to reach orbit you need about 9.3 km/s--and remember the v^2 term of kinetic energy. There's some sets of assumptions where a jet stage could make sense as a first stage, but it unable to do the entire task or even most of it.
Delta Force
Banned
I actually have an artist's depiction of a CF-105 with ramjets underneath each wing launching a center mounted rocket/missile. Canada explored several methods of launching satellites into orbit during the 1960s, including miniature Verne cannons constructed out of USN surplus 16 inch cannons. Gerald Bull was the lead designer for that project (I think it was Project HARP) and he later went on to design Project Babylon, an Iraqi Verne cannon. Canadians also designed the Avrocar (basically a ground effect UFO) and contributed greatly to the Gemini Program.
As for aircraft launches themselves, they make a great platform for launching objects into orbit because you don't have to design the rocket engine to operate at sea level and punch through all that thick atmosphere. The technique is currently used to launch smaller satellites that benefit from their own orbit (as opposed to a compromise orbit by riding on a larger rocket as secondary payload) with the Pegasus rocket, which is air-launched by a Lockheed Tristar. I think Dassault is working on a similar project with the Rafale, another company is apparently trying to do the same with a Lockheed Starfighter, and Antonov just last month received funding from Russia to revive a program to do aerial rocket launches with the An-225. Some early plans for the Space Shuttle also planned to use aerial launch, so it's a technique that certainly holds great promise for spacecraft capable of being carried by aircraft.
It's not so much aircraft getting the spacecraft to orbital speed and altitude as letting the rockets get past the thick atmosphere and into a more efficient environment for their nozzles. Deleting the first stage and having an engine more suitable for high altitudes is a great way to save money. Jet fuel costs a lot less than a massive first stage, and an aircraft can put you into whatever orbit you want by simply flying there. It can even fly you to a location with better weather or over the ocean, so poor weather and congestion near the spaceport aren't problems (they might be at the launch site though).
The question asked specifically pertained to getting a jet to orbit, not to airlaunch, and I answered that. As for airlaunch itself, I'm not a huge believer. The problem is you still need a pretty massive first stage--you only save about 500 m/s total dropping subsonically at realistic operational ceilings, so about a couple percent boost in payload for the same amount of rocket fuel. Does operating the plane cost less than a few thousand a flight? I'm a bit skeptical.
There's also the fact that you're limited by the gross mass your drop plane can lift. I mean, Stratolaunch is busy building the biggest plane EVAR and Orbital's building a rocket with the (third) best payload-to-gross-weight fraction EVAR and together they're managing to make only about 6500 kg to orbit. It's impressive technical achievements, but is it the best way to get to orbit...I'm not really a huge buyer of the concept. Maybe like you say for small sats that'd otherwise be limited by the orbits launches with available secondary payload slots were going to, but that's about it.