minor nitpick 1905 very, very, few ships would have had a radio and if they did it would have been spark-gap morse code... wireless telegraphy
Last edited:
The Franco-Japanese war
- Thread starter sharlin
- Start date
http://jproc.ca/rrp/nro_his.html still think you're to early... anything that has anything to do with my little ponies that doesn't involve a planentary sized meat grinder with the power of V'ger and the morals of the 3rd space aliens ought to be dis-allowed
good well written story tho'sharlin
Banned
It might be a touch too early but i'm basing it on the fact that the Japanese ships were basically identical to RN ones save for the language on dials and did upgrade their ships, the IJN was a very modern force. Its front line ships were barely 5 years old at the oldest.
The French on the other hand also upgraded their ships and used Morse early and often.
Touch confused 'bout the MLP comment though :s
The French on the other hand also upgraded their ships and used Morse early and often.
Touch confused 'bout the MLP comment though :s
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
jpg insert http://i44.tinypic.com/51q2z4.jpg
That has nothing to do with anything, so keep it out of this thread.
sharlin
Banned
[FONT="]The Franco-Japanese war: A Civil(ian) interlude
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]SS La Bretagne, 120 miles East of the Vietnamese coast. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
Captain Artois was patiently attending to his morning rounds of the first class passengers. The liverish irascibility in the moustached gentleman opposite him was easily explained by what the stewards had told him was a bottle and half of port the previous evening, combined with the ships current, lively motion. He was about to nod his head in acknowledgement to whatever nonsense the man was sprouting when a bridge runner approached and whispered in his ear.
“Excuse me, gentlemen,” Artois nodded to the passengers. “The management of the ship demands my presence on the bridge.”
The captain turned away smartly and strode briskly towards the ladder to the bridge. Behind him he could hear pompous voices, exclaiming “The Bridge, of course,” and “yes, the bridge.”
He reached the bridge platform himself and strode to the opened window’s. “Where away?” he questioned gruffly.
“Five degrees of the starboard bow, captain,” answered the third mate and officer of the watch. ‘A thick cloud of smoke sir, and perhaps a mast.”
Rene scanned the seas ahead, spotting the smoke easily and soon the mast as well. He continued to watch as the mast rapidly popped above the horizon. Ten minutes later and a warships bridge had popped above the horizon. Then a long gun, and a high foscle. Another few minutes and the passing ship was hull up. There was stiff breeze blowing, 30 knots or more, they had passed through a cold front in the early hours of the morning. Now the wind was weakening, but the waves and occasional squals hardly bothered the 495ft long 7,112 ton La Bretagne.
1)
Captain Artois finally let out a long whistle and announced, “An impressive looking ship, one of the Imperial navy's new ones I assume.” The bridge team was bolstered by some off watch officers, all anxious to look at a passing ship in order to break the monotony of a long ocean passage. There were smiles all around as the Japanese ship closed to within 1000 yards. The smiles disappeared all around as suddenly the large gun on the Japanese ships bow was fired and a shell rose from the water 200 yards forward of the bow.
The Japanese ship made a quick turn and in two minutes it had come right round to a parallel course, 1000 yard away to starboard. A Japanese seaman appeared on the bridge wings with two large semaphore flags. The seaman began a series of flag combinations until a man from the La Bretagne was sent for their own flag sets, and finally they were able to reply. The message was passed in international code, but even then it took three or four minutes to pass and decode.
“French Passenger Ship, French Passenger Ship. This is Cruiser Chitose, Cruiser Chitose. A state of war exists between Japan and France. A state OF WAR. Heave too and prepare to abandon ship.”
2)
Rene was conscious of the eyes of all his officers upon him. He knew he could speed away from the Japanese ship, he would take some damage, but his ship was fast, and could make 17 knots, watch after watch for days. He might run her under the horizon in a day, at the cost of an initial pasting by the Japanese vessel. He cursed to himself, it was a huge decision to make.
Rene looked out over the bridge and the foscle deck below. Second class passengers were taking their morning exercise in the space. Many of the passengers were staring out over the rail at the Japanese ship, pointing and laughing. But right forward, beneath the foremast, two little girls in pink pinafores were busy playing hopscotch. The first girl threw her stone, oblivious to the ships pitching motion. The second girl watched, intent, alert to the slightest irregularity with the throw or the jump. The first girl completed her hops, retrieved the stone and returned, triumphant.
Captain Artois adopted a melancholy countenance. It was not his role in life then, to fight the Republic's enemies. His role was to transport her subjects and her treasures, with the greatest safety and economy. “All stop,” he ordered, just as the Japanese ship prepared to fire a second shot across the bow. They did so anyway, despite the stopped engines. “All hands – prepare the boats! Stewards to adopt positions for abandoning ship.” “Await orders before notifying passengers.” Greatest care had to be taken to make the necessary preparation without alarming or panicking the passengers on board. Thank the lord they were not one of the great Atlantic liners, crammed with steerage passengers and without enough boats to accept all the souls aboard. His passengers would be crowded, but they would probably all reach the coast tomorrow afternoon, even in the ships boats.
Minutes later, the captain was on the main deck, searching out stewards to marshal the passengers and to check the spaces below. The Japaneseship fired a third gun, signifying her impatience. Suddenly the captain was accosted by a huge fat woman. The woman pinned him against the bulkhead with her great bosom, and began a tirade.
“Captain, I must say, whatever is this nonsense about abandoning the ship?” “ I simply cannot pack in less than half a day, and besides which, what purpose would be served by abandoning the ship, here in the middle of the great sea?”
“My regrets, ma’am, but it appears that we are at war with Japan. The Japanese cruiser demands we abandon ship, I believe they mean to sink us.”
“The Japanese? War with the Japanese you say! It is all the fault of the government and that appalling Mr Rouvier. My good father would never vote for him. My husband, unfortunately though…”
“Ma’am I must insist you realise me this instant, and follow the Stewards directions to the boats.” He stamped his foot. “ I really must insist for your safety.”
“Control your passions, Captain, you may not stamp your foot at me, the directors will hear of this, I do say. Go and parlay with the Japanese Captain. They will give way to reason. They may be barbaric but they must understand fashion. They will not expect me to abandon my best India luggage!”
“Ma’am, will you obey the directions of the stewards and abandon ship?” A great grin spread over the face of the Captain.
“I most certainly will not, a most preposterous suggestion.”
The captain was glad of his musings on the ditching of passengers the previous morning after another evening of dinners. He hailed two passing seaman, working at provisioning the boats. “You men there, Jaque, Bruno . Go to the bosuns stores and return, bring me 100 feet of best one inch manila and two planks, as quick as you like.”
The seamen grinned broadly and scampered off. Some of the passengers, equally loath to leave their cabins, and full of wild schemes to negotiate with or defeat the 'yellow peril' had gathered to watch the altercation. Suddenly them men were back and the captain was issuing orders. “Right, Bruno, a running bowline there. Yes, that’s right, over her head, don’t mind if she screams or hollers.“ The fat lady aimed a viscous kick at the shins of Jaque, but the seaman was nimble and dodged the blow. “That’s right, Jaque, put one plank along her spine and the other along her front. Bruno, start taking turns around her.
The work was quickly done, the men were good at rope work. Soon the recalcitrant evacuee was trussed head and foot, with a neat top not at her head for her to be lowed down with. The only hitch came when the two seamen proved too few to lift the bundle. Another two men were called and the lady, trussed up like a moth in a spiders web man handled her to the gangway and then lowered the woman like a sack of potatoes to the boat below. Most of the other passengers, silenced by this example, finally understood the gravity of the situation when the ships officers were issued with revolvers.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The evacuation proceeded in an orderly fashion for the next hour, with the Japanese even giving the French liner one of their bigger ships boats. [/FONT]
[FONT="]The Passengers slowly rowing towards the coast could only watch as the Japanese cruiser put a pair of torpedoes into the La Bretagne one forward, one aft. The ship took fifteen minutes to sink, and there were no casualties.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The assemblage of lifeboats was found four hours later by a passing Russian cruiser the Varyag and her escort the old gunboat Koriets that had been on a visit to French holdings in the region. [/FONT]
[FONT="]The stunned Russian Captain thus found out from a huge mass of passengers and ships crew that France and Japan were indeed at war.
1) The La Bretagne on a trip to San Francisco after being taken off the Atlantic trade in 1902.
2) IJN Chitose shortly after being comissioned, the Chitose was a modern and powerful light cruiser and went on to claim six more French merchant vessels before rejoining the fleet.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]SS La Bretagne, 120 miles East of the Vietnamese coast. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
Captain Artois was patiently attending to his morning rounds of the first class passengers. The liverish irascibility in the moustached gentleman opposite him was easily explained by what the stewards had told him was a bottle and half of port the previous evening, combined with the ships current, lively motion. He was about to nod his head in acknowledgement to whatever nonsense the man was sprouting when a bridge runner approached and whispered in his ear.
“Excuse me, gentlemen,” Artois nodded to the passengers. “The management of the ship demands my presence on the bridge.”
The captain turned away smartly and strode briskly towards the ladder to the bridge. Behind him he could hear pompous voices, exclaiming “The Bridge, of course,” and “yes, the bridge.”
He reached the bridge platform himself and strode to the opened window’s. “Where away?” he questioned gruffly.
“Five degrees of the starboard bow, captain,” answered the third mate and officer of the watch. ‘A thick cloud of smoke sir, and perhaps a mast.”
Rene scanned the seas ahead, spotting the smoke easily and soon the mast as well. He continued to watch as the mast rapidly popped above the horizon. Ten minutes later and a warships bridge had popped above the horizon. Then a long gun, and a high foscle. Another few minutes and the passing ship was hull up. There was stiff breeze blowing, 30 knots or more, they had passed through a cold front in the early hours of the morning. Now the wind was weakening, but the waves and occasional squals hardly bothered the 495ft long 7,112 ton La Bretagne.
1)
Captain Artois finally let out a long whistle and announced, “An impressive looking ship, one of the Imperial navy's new ones I assume.” The bridge team was bolstered by some off watch officers, all anxious to look at a passing ship in order to break the monotony of a long ocean passage. There were smiles all around as the Japanese ship closed to within 1000 yards. The smiles disappeared all around as suddenly the large gun on the Japanese ships bow was fired and a shell rose from the water 200 yards forward of the bow.
The Japanese ship made a quick turn and in two minutes it had come right round to a parallel course, 1000 yard away to starboard. A Japanese seaman appeared on the bridge wings with two large semaphore flags. The seaman began a series of flag combinations until a man from the La Bretagne was sent for their own flag sets, and finally they were able to reply. The message was passed in international code, but even then it took three or four minutes to pass and decode.
“French Passenger Ship, French Passenger Ship. This is Cruiser Chitose, Cruiser Chitose. A state of war exists between Japan and France. A state OF WAR. Heave too and prepare to abandon ship.”
2)
Rene was conscious of the eyes of all his officers upon him. He knew he could speed away from the Japanese ship, he would take some damage, but his ship was fast, and could make 17 knots, watch after watch for days. He might run her under the horizon in a day, at the cost of an initial pasting by the Japanese vessel. He cursed to himself, it was a huge decision to make.
Rene looked out over the bridge and the foscle deck below. Second class passengers were taking their morning exercise in the space. Many of the passengers were staring out over the rail at the Japanese ship, pointing and laughing. But right forward, beneath the foremast, two little girls in pink pinafores were busy playing hopscotch. The first girl threw her stone, oblivious to the ships pitching motion. The second girl watched, intent, alert to the slightest irregularity with the throw or the jump. The first girl completed her hops, retrieved the stone and returned, triumphant.
Captain Artois adopted a melancholy countenance. It was not his role in life then, to fight the Republic's enemies. His role was to transport her subjects and her treasures, with the greatest safety and economy. “All stop,” he ordered, just as the Japanese ship prepared to fire a second shot across the bow. They did so anyway, despite the stopped engines. “All hands – prepare the boats! Stewards to adopt positions for abandoning ship.” “Await orders before notifying passengers.” Greatest care had to be taken to make the necessary preparation without alarming or panicking the passengers on board. Thank the lord they were not one of the great Atlantic liners, crammed with steerage passengers and without enough boats to accept all the souls aboard. His passengers would be crowded, but they would probably all reach the coast tomorrow afternoon, even in the ships boats.
Minutes later, the captain was on the main deck, searching out stewards to marshal the passengers and to check the spaces below. The Japaneseship fired a third gun, signifying her impatience. Suddenly the captain was accosted by a huge fat woman. The woman pinned him against the bulkhead with her great bosom, and began a tirade.
“Captain, I must say, whatever is this nonsense about abandoning the ship?” “ I simply cannot pack in less than half a day, and besides which, what purpose would be served by abandoning the ship, here in the middle of the great sea?”
“My regrets, ma’am, but it appears that we are at war with Japan. The Japanese cruiser demands we abandon ship, I believe they mean to sink us.”
“The Japanese? War with the Japanese you say! It is all the fault of the government and that appalling Mr Rouvier. My good father would never vote for him. My husband, unfortunately though…”
“Ma’am I must insist you realise me this instant, and follow the Stewards directions to the boats.” He stamped his foot. “ I really must insist for your safety.”
“Control your passions, Captain, you may not stamp your foot at me, the directors will hear of this, I do say. Go and parlay with the Japanese Captain. They will give way to reason. They may be barbaric but they must understand fashion. They will not expect me to abandon my best India luggage!”
“Ma’am, will you obey the directions of the stewards and abandon ship?” A great grin spread over the face of the Captain.
“I most certainly will not, a most preposterous suggestion.”
The captain was glad of his musings on the ditching of passengers the previous morning after another evening of dinners. He hailed two passing seaman, working at provisioning the boats. “You men there, Jaque, Bruno . Go to the bosuns stores and return, bring me 100 feet of best one inch manila and two planks, as quick as you like.”
The seamen grinned broadly and scampered off. Some of the passengers, equally loath to leave their cabins, and full of wild schemes to negotiate with or defeat the 'yellow peril' had gathered to watch the altercation. Suddenly them men were back and the captain was issuing orders. “Right, Bruno, a running bowline there. Yes, that’s right, over her head, don’t mind if she screams or hollers.“ The fat lady aimed a viscous kick at the shins of Jaque, but the seaman was nimble and dodged the blow. “That’s right, Jaque, put one plank along her spine and the other along her front. Bruno, start taking turns around her.
The work was quickly done, the men were good at rope work. Soon the recalcitrant evacuee was trussed head and foot, with a neat top not at her head for her to be lowed down with. The only hitch came when the two seamen proved too few to lift the bundle. Another two men were called and the lady, trussed up like a moth in a spiders web man handled her to the gangway and then lowered the woman like a sack of potatoes to the boat below. Most of the other passengers, silenced by this example, finally understood the gravity of the situation when the ships officers were issued with revolvers.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The evacuation proceeded in an orderly fashion for the next hour, with the Japanese even giving the French liner one of their bigger ships boats. [/FONT]
[FONT="]The Passengers slowly rowing towards the coast could only watch as the Japanese cruiser put a pair of torpedoes into the La Bretagne one forward, one aft. The ship took fifteen minutes to sink, and there were no casualties.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The assemblage of lifeboats was found four hours later by a passing Russian cruiser the Varyag and her escort the old gunboat Koriets that had been on a visit to French holdings in the region. [/FONT]
[FONT="]The stunned Russian Captain thus found out from a huge mass of passengers and ships crew that France and Japan were indeed at war.
1) The La Bretagne on a trip to San Francisco after being taken off the Atlantic trade in 1902.
2) IJN Chitose shortly after being comissioned, the Chitose was a modern and powerful light cruiser and went on to claim six more French merchant vessels before rejoining the fleet.
[/FONT]
Last edited:
Not a bad update. I found the forcible evacuation of the fat, belligerent passenger amusing.
The scene with the passenger was a nice little comic interlude in this interesting TL.
Might want to do something about that little typo, unless the crew of Chitose managed to somehow get away with turning renegade for a bit in order to make a few extra yen.
Might want to do something about that little typo, unless the crew of Chitose managed to somehow get away with turning renegade for a bit in order to make a few extra yen.
I like this sort of updates in a timeline. It gives the more lifelike setting. Having all big events is fine, but a lot of stuff happens that are just ordinary people's lives whether perturbed by the historic events around them or not. It also makes for fine reading if done in a way Sharlin just did. Good job man.
Subscribed. It's all good stuff, engineering, commerce-raiding a passenger liner, the horrible losses of ships on both sides--and the relatively gracious saving of most of Formidable's crew. I particularly liked the below-decks stuff, including the glimpse of the Japanese gun crew's operations.
As far as sides go, I too am rooting for the underdogs-the real underdogs, who are the Thais and the Vietnamese people. Therefore I'm siding with Japan, but mainly against French colonialism. But not the French people or even these rather gallant sailors! La grande dame grosse had a point, it's "that appalling Mr Rouvier" who is to blame. Well, him and pretty much all of French foreign policy for the last century!
Even if Japan wins handily the native Southeast Asians aren't out of the woods yet; there's plenty potential for mutual fallings-out between three Emperors (if they restore the Vietnamese dynasty or start a new one--four, if Cambodia gets folded into the deal) and their respective populations. Britain might reconsider her alliance with Japan as the concept of native rule independent of colonial patronage by Europeans rolls over to Malaya, Burma, and India! A major reason Thailand was able to keep its independence OTL was that it was balanced between British and French zones of expansion, and came to be valued as a buffer state. With France gone and replaced either by truly independent native states or Japanese hegemony, the Thais would suddenly be vulnerable to British expansionism. But then again, the base from which the British might try to expand would be itself destabilized by anti-colonialist agitation. Maybe Thailand rides the wave again?
And we don't know yet which side wins. The only prophecy we've had of the future yet is that there will indeed be a Great War, in 1916. Even being told the Anglo-French Entente is pretty much out the window by now doesn't prove they can't nevertheless be allies rather than enemies in that great war over a decade away.
But I feel we've been warned away from turning this thread into speculation on that distant world war so I won't search for portents!
I fear that a victory for France in this war would be interpreted all too broadly and widely as a victory for white supremacy; it would completely close the door on the already slim chance the French colonial empire has on reforming itself so it isn't universally despised by its subjects; of course French defeat would send shockwaves through all the colonial empires, France's other holdings especially.
---
Finally, I wonder why Chitose didn't seize La Bretangne as a prize, put a skeleton prize crew aboard her and sail her for Tokyo? Rather than sink her? Is this a pragmatic thing--a cruiser can't spare enough crew to manage to keep a liner's boilers stoked and other essential minimal functions, say. Or to do with the fine points of naval commerce raiding--getting the passengers safely off and then sinking the ship is OK, taking the ship as a prize is piracy?
It just seemed a shame to send her to the bottom, fine India luggage and all!
As far as sides go, I too am rooting for the underdogs-the real underdogs, who are the Thais and the Vietnamese people. Therefore I'm siding with Japan, but mainly against French colonialism. But not the French people or even these rather gallant sailors! La grande dame grosse had a point, it's "that appalling Mr Rouvier" who is to blame. Well, him and pretty much all of French foreign policy for the last century!
Even if Japan wins handily the native Southeast Asians aren't out of the woods yet; there's plenty potential for mutual fallings-out between three Emperors (if they restore the Vietnamese dynasty or start a new one--four, if Cambodia gets folded into the deal) and their respective populations. Britain might reconsider her alliance with Japan as the concept of native rule independent of colonial patronage by Europeans rolls over to Malaya, Burma, and India! A major reason Thailand was able to keep its independence OTL was that it was balanced between British and French zones of expansion, and came to be valued as a buffer state. With France gone and replaced either by truly independent native states or Japanese hegemony, the Thais would suddenly be vulnerable to British expansionism. But then again, the base from which the British might try to expand would be itself destabilized by anti-colonialist agitation. Maybe Thailand rides the wave again?
And we don't know yet which side wins. The only prophecy we've had of the future yet is that there will indeed be a Great War, in 1916. Even being told the Anglo-French Entente is pretty much out the window by now doesn't prove they can't nevertheless be allies rather than enemies in that great war over a decade away.
But I feel we've been warned away from turning this thread into speculation on that distant world war so I won't search for portents!
I fear that a victory for France in this war would be interpreted all too broadly and widely as a victory for white supremacy; it would completely close the door on the already slim chance the French colonial empire has on reforming itself so it isn't universally despised by its subjects; of course French defeat would send shockwaves through all the colonial empires, France's other holdings especially.
---
Finally, I wonder why Chitose didn't seize La Bretangne as a prize, put a skeleton prize crew aboard her and sail her for Tokyo? Rather than sink her? Is this a pragmatic thing--a cruiser can't spare enough crew to manage to keep a liner's boilers stoked and other essential minimal functions, say. Or to do with the fine points of naval commerce raiding--getting the passengers safely off and then sinking the ship is OK, taking the ship as a prize is piracy?
It just seemed a shame to send her to the bottom, fine India luggage and all!
sharlin
Banned
What can I say but thank you for the support!
And blimey you've thought more about this than I have! Truth be told i've not thought much about the immediate after effects of the war, i've got a plan for the future as you noted but i've not thought about the major effects on the nations that are basically being fought over or the immediate effect of a possible land grab and territorial wranglings by other Empires.
The Japanese are basically using the Thai's support as an excuse for a land grab. Relying on their alliance with the UK to parry the threat of the Russians leaping in to help the French who were their allies at the time. The RN also deployed a considerable force of 12 Battleships + escorts to Singapore, no doubt giving the harbourmaster and coliers a heart attack as a 'stablising' force in the region.
The Japanese want the French concessions along the Chinese coast and to weaken their military in the region, hence the landings in northern Vietnam striking for Hanoi. Its a big risk, its a long way from the home islands and a long distance to fight a war, especially given the tech of the time, but it is possible. All be it at enormous expense.
And you've not been warned away for speculation for the future, I welcome it! It would be good to discuss it, but regarding the ente cordial..more on that to come.
The prize rules are fine, technically the Japanese could take the ship as a prize but it would mean you'd have to man the boiler rooms and engine rooms, both of which are very manpower intensive as well as conning the ship.
Also the Liner was close to french territory and it was basically more expedient to sink her and deny the French a very expensive ship and her cargo. As a raider the cruiser can't stick around transfering crew and escorting her to safety.
And blimey you've thought more about this than I have! Truth be told i've not thought much about the immediate after effects of the war, i've got a plan for the future as you noted but i've not thought about the major effects on the nations that are basically being fought over or the immediate effect of a possible land grab and territorial wranglings by other Empires.
The Japanese are basically using the Thai's support as an excuse for a land grab. Relying on their alliance with the UK to parry the threat of the Russians leaping in to help the French who were their allies at the time. The RN also deployed a considerable force of 12 Battleships + escorts to Singapore, no doubt giving the harbourmaster and coliers a heart attack as a 'stablising' force in the region.
The Japanese want the French concessions along the Chinese coast and to weaken their military in the region, hence the landings in northern Vietnam striking for Hanoi. Its a big risk, its a long way from the home islands and a long distance to fight a war, especially given the tech of the time, but it is possible. All be it at enormous expense.
And you've not been warned away for speculation for the future, I welcome it! It would be good to discuss it, but regarding the ente cordial..more on that to come.
The prize rules are fine, technically the Japanese could take the ship as a prize but it would mean you'd have to man the boiler rooms and engine rooms, both of which are very manpower intensive as well as conning the ship.
Also the Liner was close to french territory and it was basically more expedient to sink her and deny the French a very expensive ship and her cargo. As a raider the cruiser can't stick around transfering crew and escorting her to safety.
Last edited:
Great to, and actually I am learning a little by reading your writing style. I don't want to speculate because this is a very well written tl and ou have hinge handled.
One thing though... Make a book. This is very wel written, but I'm wondering if you can do the same with land battles
One thing though... Make a book. This is very wel written, but I'm wondering if you can do the same with land battles