The Death of Russia - TL

Tuva was annexed by Mongolia and Buryatia was defeated and destroyed by Siberia and the FEK. The Buryats and other Mongolic minorities have been expelled to Mongolia.
My bad
Can't they just mutiny and ask Fidel to ask China for support instead?

I'm not defending the Castros. But many Cubans still support them despite all that has happened. It's like expecting Mao to be overthrown because of the Cultural Revolution. Sure Mao was a dick but he was too respected by anyone to even think of deposing.

What I am saying is because of the Castros' significance to the Cuban population, the military would most likely force them to find a better solution. As I said before they would more likely force them to ask China for help.
Yes, as with any other half-decent dictatorship, then Cuba has a "cult of the dictator" with state propaganda making one weird claim after the other, like that "communist cows are superior to the American cows" and the like. OTL-Cuba's propaganda lives on, and you can easily find someone writing "Cuban health care is great", thought most medical journals agree that it is a simple matter of falsified statistics.

Same with the claim that "many Cubans still support" Castro, where a lot of indicators point to the answer being "hell, no", but where reliable data is lacking.

While I agree that an assassination could easily go into a civil war, then this didn't happen in Romania, which had as many saying "many Romanians still support Ceausescu".
And on that note, even if the miltiary does overthrow them, it is more likely they'd go with "forced to retire for health reasons" instead of an assassination owing to what you mentioned.
I agree that the "unknown assassins" line sounds weird, however, it would be suicide to try to depose the Castros and then let them live.
 
Yes, as with any other half-decent dictatorship, then Cuba has a "cult of the dictator" with state propaganda making one weird claim after the other, like that "communist cows are superior to the American cows" and the like. OTL-Cuba's propaganda lives on, and you can easily find someone writing "Cuban health care is great", thought most medical journals agree that it is a simple matter of falsified statistics.

Same with the claim that "many Cubans still support" Castro, where a lot of indicators point to the answer being "hell, no", but where reliable data is lacking.

While I agree that an assassination could easily go into a civil war, then this didn't happen in Romania, which had as many saying "many Romanians still support Ceausescu".
Cuba's government, while definitely far from perfect and has serious problems, also has provided vital social services like healthcare, education, and subsidized food that made it a better place than many of the anti-communist dictatorships in the region. The Cuban government has also broken the power of US corporations that many Cubans opposed and despised back then. Many Cubans have also opposed US interference many times that continues to this day. That's not to mention the US embargo that continues to be the source of a lot of problems for the island to this day. And I am aware that this system has had and still has problems. Yet even the recent problems didn't call for the overthrow of the Castros as much as it demanded better social services.

My point is is that the Castros are too popular and respected and the fear and distrust of the US too great for anyone to think of overthrowing them. And the military has been loyal to the Castros for very long. My point is that the military would force Fidel to find someone else to get support from like China. Overthrowing them would open way too many cans of worms. There is no way anyone in Cuba wants to return to the Bautista days.

Romania's government was established because of USSR intervention whilst the revolution that put Fidel in power was a popular uprising. Huge difference. After all Fidel was put into power because the vast majority of Cubans were sick and tired of the pro-US Bautista regime.

Once again I'm not defending the Cuban government. Just saying that the Castros won't just be nicked off quietly without causing a lot of trouble. Also Fidel has avoided assassination so many times. So I highly doubt he's being assassinated here successfully.
 
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I admit, I am underinformed when it comes to weapons of mass destruction, but I am unconvinced as to that Moscow (and potentially other western Russian cities as well) would remain uninhabitable all the way into the 2020s.
Moscow is saturated with chemical weapons yes, but I doubt that these compounds wouldn't decay and dissipate naturally over the years. In particular the nerve agents used, many of them aren't very shelf stable. For example a mixture of sarin and VX, both of which have been used in Moscow as far as I know, could decay in a matter of weeks.

And even if the ruins get nuked, I'd argue that makes things easier since the fireball and radiation should destroy most of the lingering chemical weapons, and yes, there will be fallout, but we know about how long the excess radiation lingers. Of course, things may vary based on how many nukes strike, and what their yield is, but I doubt that Anpilov and the Nashis have that many working nukes to render Moscow irradiated for decades, especially given other cities will be hit as well, with higher priority. And people started returning to Hiroshima and Nagasaki before the 1940s were out, while Chernobyl is a tourist attraction.
Petrograd and Stalingrad might get hit with enough nukes to render them uninhabitable for decades, but honestly, most of the impacted cities will probably only receive one nuke, and that, even accounting for the fallout, shouldn't leave them dangerous for too long, right? Especially since we have modern technology, and I'm almost certain that the UN (and/or charities or NATO) would send a humanitarian mission to restore order and secure Europe's eastern frontier. Surely they could clean up at least the cities that got the lighter hits.

And Moscow, there aren't even ruins left there, really, so it might not even get nuked. So it all comes down to the stability of the chemical weapons when left out in the open, exposed to all of the forces and reactions of Earth's atmosphere.

Like, I'm not saying that Moscow would be safe to live in by the turn of the millennium. But find it really hard to believe that it would remain uninhabitable for all of thirty years. You get me, right?
 
Like, I'm not saying that Moscow would be safe to live in by the turn of the millennium. But find it really hard to believe that it would remain uninhabitable for all of thirty years. You get me, right?
True, but that's likely to be irrelevant. If Moscow is uninhabitable for even a few years, that will be enough for the survivors to get used to their new homes. You can't have a city if there's no-one to live there, and the surrounding areas that aren't full of rubble will likely be more attractive for future developers. You could see something similar to post-fall Rome, where the Vatican, a town in the Campus Martius, and the Leonine City (a tourist trap) became three separate cities in the outskirts of what was once Rome while the actual core of the city was basically uninhabited.
 
I wonder if we’ll get an intermission chapter to see how the economic crisis has impacted the world. In OTL the late 90s saw a wave of anti-neoliberalism protests. The current economic crisis could make these protests more powerful. But then again there’s the threat of nuclear war that could give governments the convenient excuse to crackdown on dissent.
 
Like, I'm not saying that Moscow would be safe to live in by the turn of the millennium. But find it really hard to believe that it would remain uninhabitable for all of thirty years. You get me, right?
Anpilov could made Moscow on his traget list when he start throwing nukes.
Like yes it pretty meaningless to drop a nuke on an abandon city, than again he wasn't the sanest person to begin with.
 
Anpilov could made Moscow on his traget list when he start throwing nukes.
Like yes it pretty meaningless to drop a nuke on an abandon city, than again he wasn't the sanest person to begin with.

I can't see even Anpilov wasting nukes to empty and ruined city. Petrograd is natural number one and then any other big city which has some importance.
 
I can't see even Anpilov wasting nukes to empty and ruined city. Petrograd is natural number one and then any other big city which has some importance.
And of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the capitals of the secessionist regimes in the Uralic and Caucasian regions also eat nukes as well.
 
Anyone who will guess about the successor to the MIR as Earth's orbit lacked its actual space station to perform space experiments? I believe that NASA will collaborate with other countries to create Liberty Station, which is different from the OTL International Space Station.
 
As loathesome as the Petrograd regime is, is it wrong I hope the city doesn't get nuked?

Given all that was lost in Moscow, St. Petersburg going up in thermonuclear flame would be a loss almost as deep to art and history.
 
As loathesome as the Petrograd regime is, is it wrong I hope the city doesn't get nuked?

Given all that was lost in Moscow, St. Petersburg going up in thermonuclear flame would be a loss almost as deep to art and history.

Yeah, losing of St. Petersburg would be indeed tragic event. No more Winter Palace and other such places and art pieces.
 
Cuba's government, while definitely far from perfect and has serious problems, also has provided vital social services like healthcare, education, and subsidized food that made it a better place than many of the anti-communist dictatorships in the region.
so in response to my comment (with sources) that "OTL-Cuba's propaganda lives on, and you can easily find someone writing "Cuban health care is great", thought most medical journals agree that it is a simple matter of falsified statistics.", you write "Cuba's government [..] has provided vital social services like healthcare [..] hat made it a better place than many of the anti-communist dictatorships in the region"...
Once again I'm not defending the Cuban government.
Sorry, but your posts are most definitely trying to whitewash the history of an evil and murderous dictatorship by repeating a mix of disputed, disproven and discarded propaganda claims by said regime, with the above example as a prime reference.

If given half the chance in the 1990s, the people of Cuba would do to Castro, what the Libyans did to Gaddafi as revenge for the arbitrary jailing, re-education camps and general cronyism of the regime, which - while still being denied by left-wings apologists today - is fairly well documented by credible sources.
 
so in response to my comment (with sources) that "OTL-Cuba's propaganda lives on, and you can easily find someone writing "Cuban health care is great", thought most medical journals agree that it is a simple matter of falsified statistics.", you write "Cuba's government [..] has provided vital social services like healthcare [..] hat made it a better place than many of the anti-communist dictatorships in the region"...

Sorry, but your posts are most definitely trying to whitewash the history of an evil and murderous dictatorship by repeating a mix of disputed, disproven and discarded propaganda claims by said regime, with the above example as a prime reference.

If given half the chance in the 1990s, the people of Cuba would do to Castro, what the Libyans did to Gaddafi as revenge for the arbitrary jailing, re-education camps and general cronyism of the regime, which - while still being denied by left-wings apologists today - is fairly well documented by credible sources.
Whilst far from perfect Cuban social services are far from useless and the state at least isn’t subpar in providing them. And the Cuban system, for all its faults, was still miles better than what the right wing dictatorships of the time provided. Also once again the US blockade. I don’t think I can explain enough how that has crippled Cuba immensely and how it’s a huge source of Cuba’s economic woes.


As I’ve been saying a million times over I’m trying to argue for a nuanced view on Cuba. It all ties to my previous argument on why the Castros would definitely not be overthrown at all despite the problems going on. Believing that the Cubans are willing to revert to capitalism just cause is really ignoring how much the majority of the populace despises the Bautista regime and wants no return for it. Most protests against the government in OTL are for political/economic reform and not the overthrow of socialism. Plus Gaddafi’s handling of Libya before his overthrow can’t be compared considering how bad he was.

And no I’m not one of those guys who supports the Castro government no matter what and I’m very not in denial of its horrible actions. I’m just saying that it is very far-fetched to think that the Castros would be overthrown all of the sudden in the situation in this TL.
 
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I think we should agree to disagree on the question of Cuba, considering this isn't that pertinent to the wider TL and its impending climax.
Absolutely Agreed!!!
Guy please this is not a debate thread, it's a TL thread about the Death of Russia!

Please just enjoy the story not turn this into something that not
 
The Death of Russia


All is Well

Extract from ‘A Continent of Fire’ by James Melfi

Those heady days of 1989, 1991. We thought we’d escaped it. Escaped the third and final cataclysm of the Twentieth Century. True, we avoided the Third World War between the nations but we saw the Third World War within a nation. Or more accurately, between the many nations of one doomed country. We watched, unable to do anything, as the ghosts of dead empires rose to damn the living. The scenes just years ago of crowds in jubilation at the dawn of unending freedom of Europe were erased from our minds. Now all we saw were the lonely bodies of emaciated villagers line the streets of abandoned villages slowly hide under the Siberian snow. Just as ‘1914’ and ‘1939’ chill our blood, perhaps it was the destruction of our dreams that made the year ‘1993’ so much more chilling.


Extract from ‘The Unstoppable Tragedy: The Second Russian Civil War’ by Peter Hodges

Contrary to popular imagination, Yeltsin’s overthrow was not the spark that kicked off a wave of Post-Soviet bloodshed, but only the latest in a string of violence. Armenia and Azerbaijan were fighting over Nagorno-Karabakh, Tajikistan was in the midst of a brutal Civil War, Georgia was fighting an independence movement in Abkhazia that was aided by Russia and Transnistria had just been formed from the Russian intervention in Moldova. And of course, Yugoslavia had already torn itself apart in a wave of ethnic violence that would eerily foreshadow what was to come. At the same time, there were many territorial disputes that seem almost quaint now. Sevastopol was a bone of contention for the Russians in Ukraine, there were Russian troops in the Baltics and Warsaw Pact states and many of those states were trying to join NATO to mixed reception in the US. Perhaps most importantly for the fate of the region, the nuclear weapon question regarding Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan remained unresolved.

But the main thing that the average man on the street thought about was, of course, the escalating economic and social collapse that had swept the Post-Soviet states. The pain in the Warsaw Pact nations was one thing, but for the Soviet states (especially the three core East Slavic states of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus) their economies had not only been thoroughly centrally planned practically to the street telephone box, but they had no one who remembered a time when anything but Communism was in charge, unlike the Poles, Hungarians, or even the Balts. Consequently, the pain was increasingly intense as one moved east over the old Communist Bloc, with only the Lenin statues as the Ozzymandias style ruins of the Soviet Empire. Inflation was indescribable, the ordered streets had vanished into a free-for-all of gangsters of all levels of thuggery. The ethnic hatreds that had simmered for decades in silence roared out in a wave of racist attacks on non-Slavic citizens in Russia especially. The class hatreds once extinguished by the equal distribution of misery under Communism was renewed as corrupt privatisation practices left millions of ordinary Russians short-changed while a new class of parasitic oligarchy was founded from the most corrupt recesses of the Communist party and literal criminals. To add insult to injury, the new Oligarchs stored their wealth in Swiss banks and ensured none of it would be invested in the country they robbed from. In 1992 alone, the GDP contracted by an unimaginable 14.5%.

This gave renewed life to both the Communist and Fascist movements inside Russia, and weakened the already decaying support democracy had and needed to function in Russia. The situation is often compared to Weimar Germany in how it fundamentally made Russians lose faith in the concept not just of Capitalism but democracy in general, much like the hyperinflation and political chaos of Weimar Germany reinforced many Germans’ desire for authoritarianism. Like Weimar Germany a thriving free-speech atmosphere pervaded the streets as people were finally able to openly speak their minds without fear of persecution, but this was to be cut tragically short.

The main political warfare in 1993 was between two groups: President Boris Yeltsin and his cabinet (who were seen as responsible for the economic tailspin) and the Russian Parliament. The latter was supported by the banned National Salvation Front, a Frankenstein alliance of convenience between the racist reactionary Right and dictatorial Communist Left. Yeltsin accused the Parliament of being unreformed Communists while Parliament accused him of consolidating power. Both cast themselves as the defenders of a democracy that wouldn’t exist within the year. One of the chief architects of the economic reforms, Yegor Gaidar, was removed from the position of acting Prime Minister by the now resistive Parliament. Smelling blood in the water after the Supreme Court ruled Yeltsin’s attempts to block Parliament unconstitutional, the Parliament attempted and failed to impeach Yeltsin in March 1993, leading to the new Chairman of Parliament Ruslan Khasbulatov to propose a series of referendums to resolve the question of whether the President or Parliament would yield. Despite the results generally going in the direction the Yeltsin camp wanted, the Supreme Court ruled the results to have had an insufficient turnout to be binding.

Some believe that the Second Russian Civil War began as early as May 1st 1993, when a joint group of Communist and Far-Right protestors clashed with the police, leading to one policeman being killed. But the events that escalated the disintegration of the Russian Federation could be said to have become unstoppable on September 1st 1993 after another failed attempt to reconcile between Yeltsin and Parliament, as Yeltsin unconstitutionally fired Vice-President Alexander Rutskoy on fraudulent corruption charges and began criminal proceedings. Another attempt to impeach Yeltsin by appealing to the Supreme Court was met with Yeltsin making a televised address on September 21st, where he announced that he had dissolved the Parliament and Supreme Court by Presidential Decree. Needless to say this move was not recognised by Parliament, who declared that Rutskoy was now acting President. Over the next few days, chaos erupted in the streets as Pro-Yeltsin and Pro-Parliament protestors fought it out.

Until October 3rd it was unsure which side would win the stand-off. Parliament was holed up inside a White House that had been disconnected from water and electricity. But one factor that had not been discussed was the military, which continued to bide its time in the shadows, still refusing to declare for either side, though it was fair to say that up until then they were nominally for Yeltsin. This was, naturally, dependent on the country remaining relatively split on the issue and not swinging hard on the side of Parliament.

Unfortunately for Yeltsin, on the night of October 3rd, everyone in the country would know that his time was up.


Extract from interview with Benjamin Rich, aka Bald and Bankrupt

Interviewer: “You’ve made a name for yourself on Youtube exploring Post-Communist Europe. Can you tell us your first experience going to that part of the world?”

B&B: “Well, would you believe it, a bright, barely-able-to-speak-a-word-of-Russian 19 year old me was actually in Moscow in the middle of the standoff between Yeltsin and the Supreme Soviet.”

Interviewer: “No way! Thank God you got out.”

B&B: “I wasn’t so sure I would. On October 3rd I’d actually snuck out of the hotel after the staff were telling us “Do not go outside, it’s too dangerous”. As you can probably imagine I took it to be a sort of challenge so I got out and went near the White House where they’d built a gigantic barricade with hundreds of men with guns all over the place. They let out a big cheer and I now look back and realize that this was the moment when they were telling the crowd that they had to take the TV centre, as well as the City Council building. I stuck around and kept me head down but, I’ll tell you what, there were a lot of moments where I regretted it. About every twenty seconds or something you heard this loud crack coming from near the City Council building, and I knew that all the talk about snipers was true. There were people just lying dead or nearly dead in the middle of the street that I could see in the distance. Eventually they took the City Council building and then they went heading for the TV centre. That’s when the chaos got really intense and I just decided, right, I’m hunkering down here in this alley, it’s madness to go out into that street. And that’s when I saw something that at the time I didn’t really understand but obviously I look back and think ‘Jesus, I was lucky’, both to say I saw him and that he didn’t shoot me. I look out into the street and I see this chap leading the plain-clothes Pro-Soviet gunmen, shooting down the street and presumably hitting somebody. I didn’t think much of it at the time, but obviously when I saw him on the TV that night, I found out that he was Albert Makashov.”

Interviewer: “You saw Albert Makashov?”

B&B: “Yeah, small world! Before everyone knew who he was, there was 19 year old Benjamin hiding in some puddle that was probably full of some Gopnik’s piss while the fate of the largest country in the world was blowing up just in front of me! It took another hour or two for me to get moving. I managed to sneak back into the hotel without anyone catching on, thank God. The reason actually was, when I came in, all the staff were watching the TV in disbelief. Turns out that just before I got back, they managed to take the TV station and show all the carnage that police and OMON had been dishing out to everybody. Makashov was there, [Alexander] Nevzorov was there, going on about how Yeltsin was a tyrant and slaughtering the Russian people. They had these horrific, unedited pictures of women that got absolutely blasted to bits by the snipers, even showing some of the protestors getting ran over by tanks. I’d just been out in it but thank God I didn’t go anywhere near the TV centre. That would have been far too bloody dangerous. That’s when I sort of realised what I’d gotten meself into.”

Interviewer: “What was the reaction from everyone at the time?”

B&B: “It was madness. I have no idea how much of the staff were on Yeltsin’s side before those scenes were being played on every TV from Kaliningrad to Kamchatka, but afterwards? No, everyone in the hotel just looked absolutely disgusted. I knew then that this wasn’t going to end well for him, and unfortunately little did I know or anyone know that those horrors on the TV were going to look absolutely tame compared to what was about to come.


Extract from ‘The Unstoppable Tragedy: The Second Russian Civil War’ by Peter Hodges

The military had been noticeably quiet in the midst of the carnage in Moscow. That all changed on the night of October 3rd, just hours after the footage of the chaotic slaughter outside the Ostankino TV centre was being played on loop with no censorship. Yeltsin’s orders to block the signal, and even to bomb the station using the air force were ignored. Rutskoy, a former military man, soon found the military swinging to Parliament’s side and offering to remove Yeltsin. The mood in the White House (most certainly not the American one) was restored. The army had, of course, not sided out of some humanitarian concern over the protestors but in loaning themselves out like mercenaries to the highest bidder - after the footage of the bodies went out, Yeltsin’s stock had crashed to zero. The army now sided with the only group that could guarantee them something. As General Pavel Grachev drove a tank under a white flag to the Parliament to publicly proclaim the army’s loyalty to parliament, he pledged to fight the corruption that he practically defined. "All is well, all is well," he assured. As the army now publicly sided with Parliament, and the Pro-Yeltsin protestors vanished into the night, knowing it was now a lost cause, the writing was now thoroughly on the wall for the man who led Russia out of dictatorship.

As midnight struck, the rats began to flee the ship. Anatoly Chubais, considered the ‘mastermind’ behind the privatisations, sped off from the Kremlin in his car to the airport before Grachev had even finished speaking. Yegor Gaidar had left Moscow even before that in case something like this happened. Viktor Chernomyrdin, the official Prime Minister after having been Gazprom’s leader, was more muted but decided to fly beyond the Urals to friendlier ground. One by one, the cabinet left Yeltsin, until there was only one: Alexander Korzhakov, his old bodyguard. But even Korzhakov would go in the wee small hours of the morning, as Yeltsin sat alone, shattered but unmoving in his semi-inebriated state. As Korzhakov would write in his autobiography, “One curtain as another was pulled open, a tragic rise and fall, followed by what was simply a fall. Though I felt pity for the man before me, pity as he tried to relive 1991 all over again, I could not help but have more pity to the millions who had been let down by his corruption, his greed, his failure to live up to the hopes and dreams of millions of Russians. And if I’d known what all his failures would lead to, I would have stayed in the Presidential Office as it all came crumbling down, both to die before I saw what became of my country, and to gain the pleasure of watching him die.”

On the morning of October 4th 1993, tanks began to fire on the Kremlin, the intention of Rutskoy and the moderate members of Parliament had been simply to get Yeltsin to come out. However, while they insisted on a more moderate approach, Grachev told them that it wouldn't be necessary and that a few sharp blasts of the tank shells would make him come out. But Yeltsin would not come out, despite the repeated unbelievable scenes of shells slamming into the centre of what was the world’s co-equal premier superpower. It was then that smoke began to billow through the windows. Realising what was happening, a few panicked staff tried to return to the building to convince Yeltsin to come out and surrender, but were held back by soldiers assuming they were trying to aid him in some fashion. By the time the seriousness of the situation was realised, it was already much too late. While it is often alleged that Yeltsin was too inebriated or asleep at the time the fire consumed him, we can never know this for sure, though it did feature in various propaganda stories in the war to follow from many sides. But even if it was true that Yeltsin had perished in such a way, the utter tragedy of a man who risked his life to bring democracy to the Soviet Union, that let the Balts and Ukrainians find their independence, that brought the only form of political freedom that most Russians had ever known in their lives, albeit for a tragically brief moment, is more important than any sneers about what he didn’t do.

With the death of Boris Yeltsin died Russia’s last chance of becoming a normal democracy. Though many prayed that the violence would now finally relinquish, it was unimaginable how wrong they would be. Though there were so many stages and parties that's it’s almost impossible to say definitively when the war began, most historians are in general agreement: The moment the first tank’s shell slammed into the Kremlin, the Second Russian Civil War Era began.
Fantastic work! Keep it up mate!
 
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