Surviving Yugoslavia and its identity?
- Thread starter HistoricalArthropod
- Start date
In that case, we'd need a pre-1900 POD to butterfly away the Literary Agreement which created Serbo-Croatian in the first place. This way, the standard literary form of Croatian would be built up from Kajkavian, leaving Standard Bosnian as TTL's equivalent of Standard Croatian (aka the "western variant" of Serbo-Croatian under Royalist and Communist rule) while still having some of its own peculiar characteristics (i.e. greater retention of <h> /x/). This way we can butterfly away the whole Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin conundrum in part (even if it means creating a new one between *Croatian and Slovene).
I agree with your choice of putting the Yugoslav capital in Sarajevo - it's so obvious as a central location I'm surprised nobody in the Communist administration tried that.
The languages of Yugoslavia span such a territory that, taking into account all the dialects and languages, a conlang would have to be made. How else does one merge Slovenian and Macedonian grammar with the rest? Slovenian has the dual number, while Macedonian has no cases, but is fitted with 3 types of articles!
HistoricalArthropod
Banned
Again, how does this compare to German? Bavarian is quite different from Holsteinien. If in this Yugoslavia Serbo-Croatian is the official language, why can't Slovenian and Bulgarian just be considered "funny diverging dialects"? Just like how in Germany, Bavarian is quite different from standard German.
We get into the age-old discussion on what makes a dialect different from a language. Usually one dialect gets chosen for a standard, and evolves into the official language.
The thing is- how does one make a language that fits everyone in Yugoslavia? I think the grammar and vocabulary differences between all the languages and dialects necessitate a conlang, if OTL is to be avoided and Yugoslavia saved.
HistoricalArthropod
Banned
I still haven't gotten an answer if German is a good analogy to south slavic. If it isn't, than yes we would need a conlang
It’s not a good analogy, but not because of linguistic issues but rather politics. In the 19th century, Standard German was the sole language of German nationalism; there weren’t Bavarian nationalists writing essays on the “unique national character” of Bavaria in local dialects. In the territories that became Yugoslavia, however, Croatian and Serbian both had separate nationalist movements with differing linguistic standardizations. After that point, unifying the South Slavic language would inevitably have political connotations.
HistoricalArthropod
Banned
Well, if a Yugoslav conlang was established, do you think that would have a reverse influence on the all the natural dialects? Like, say a Bulgarian is travelling to Sarajevo for job opportunities. He buys an appartment, but all his roommates are Slovenes and Serbs. They would still talk in their native dialects, but they would also use Yugoslav conlang words to patch up areas of difference. After spending years in this situation, he eventually adopts many conlang words into his vernacular. This is just one example, but with all the internal migration, more people would end up adopting each others vocabulary and the linguistic differences between the regions would wane. Is this plausible?
BigBlueBox
Banned
So your solution to Slovenian and Croatian separatism is to take money from Slovenia and Croatia and give it to the other republics? Anyways, decentralizing Yugoslavia to just be a mini-EU would not only make it harder to transfer wealth but also make it even easier to secede and completely destroy the purpose of Yugoslavia anyways. Why have a mini-EU when all the member states can just join the EU?
Citation needed.
Chungus Maximus
Banned
You’d have to standardize religion and language. Using the Latin Alphabet would help ties with the west, some sort of Eastern Catholicism could be a compromise religion. In three generations you would have a Yugoslav ethnicity.
HistoricalArthropod
Banned
Why latin, why not cyrillic, given the majority orthodox population? Anyhow, both would likely be standardized to prevent this like in otl Serbia.
I think standard Serbo - Croatian may be the lingua franca, though an artificially constructed Yugoslav langauge would be interesting. I'm still surprised no one commented on my idea of spliting the larger republics into smaller subdivisions. So, no more Serbia or Croatia or Bulgaria. But rather, Istra, Dalmatia, Slavonia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Vojvodina, Herzegovina, Lovech, Razgrad, etc. Macedonia and Montenegro could probably stay as single entities. Not sure about Slovenia
Is there anything that Tito could've done differently during his reign over Yugoslavia? He was able to suppress ethno-religious tensions for long enough when he was alive, though obviously he failed to completely erase those boiling tensions, given how the whole country exploded after his death.
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
The biggest differences is how these areas were lost. An example. Bulgaria and Thrace were the best part of the Ottoman Empire. But between 1806 and 1878 it faced the Russians 4 times, and twice while the front as far as Edirne. That is 72 years and that means a war every 18 years on average and lastinv 2.8 years. I'm not even counting the human losses and destruction left behind. Note that the Ottomans were not industrialised much for various reasons (capitulations, geography, etc etc). The chance of further development halted as the Ottomans lost the territory just before they could start working on it.
Bosnia didn't get the attention Macedonia got. It was largely neglected after the Great Turkish War except for military purposes. Like with Bulgaria, this region could have undergone industrialisation but was lost in 1878 as well. Industrialisation would be largely mining.
Serbia and Greece were lost too early to be invested in. Macedonia, Thrace and Kosovo faced another destructive war, this time by the Balkan States.
So, unlike Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Balkans faced the destruction of war and ethnic cleansing afterwards. The Austro-Hungarians lost all immediately without facing much destruction.
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
Steps:
1. Albania added to Yugoslavia. Kinda annoying when one nation arms their kin in your nation. If you control all of them you can control them. Albania was hardly a nation in 1945. Has to happen around 1945. I'd personay want Bulgaria in it as well but it isn't necessary.
2. Create new republics in Yugoslavia (Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Sandzak). Keep the Federal State alive as long as possible.
3. Strict Secular government. Religions is controlled by the state to keep foreign unwanted influence away.
4. Promotion of migration of certain ethnicities to other regions (Albanians to Vojvodina, Croats to Kosovo, Bosnians to Slovenia, Slovenes to Macedonia)
5. Promote 1 and 1 identity only: Yugoslav. No Serb, Croat or Muslim identity. This is tied to the states secularism. Might help if the federal structures need to be rearranged to get rid of 'Croatia', 'Serbia' or 'Bosnia'.
HistoricalArthropod
Banned
Minor nitpick, but getting Bulgaria is part of the requirements as I did state "all south slavs".
Anyway, what would the capital be? Belgrade is too historically charged. Maybe Sarajevo?
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
Lol, I did not see it at first
Yeah... Bulgaria is a bit difficult. They were an independent state ever since 1908, existed since 1878. Their roots are too deep. But... Bulgaria as well might be divided in two parts: Bulgaria proper and former East Rumelia. They might as well be named Bulgaria and Thrace just to keep them divided.
The capital? I'd still say Belgrade. It is central. But... Sarajevo, Novi Sad or Skopje are optional. Sarajevo might see more Serbs and Croats in the town to keep the Bosniak Numbers lower than before, at least in the beginning.
The problem is the choice of Cyrillic or Latin. Bulgaria, Serbia and Macedonia won't turn to Latin. This will still be the mark of split between the Yugoslavs should there be one identity in Yugoslavia.
HistoricalArthropod
Banned
Bulgaria isn't too difficult I don't think. Just have ww1 play out differently. Anyway, the script is an easy problem to solve, just use both latin and cyrillic like otl Serbia.Lol, I did not see it at first
Yeah... Bulgaria is a bit difficult. They were an independent state ever since 1908, existed since 1878. Their roots are too deep. But... Bulgaria as well might be divided in two parts: Bulgaria proper and former East Rumelia. They might as well be named Bulgaria and Thrace just to keep them divided.
The capital? I'd still say Belgrade. It is central. But... Sarajevo, Novi Sad or Skopje are optional. Sarajevo might see more Serbs and Croats in the town to keep the Bosniak Numbers lower than before, at least in the beginning.
The problem is the choice of Cyrillic or Latin. Bulgaria, Serbia and Macedonia won't turn to Latin. This will still be the mark of split between the Yugoslavs should there be one identity in Yugoslavia.
Also, the capital can not be Belgrade. It's just too historically charged. I picked Sarajevo because it's more neutral.
Bookmark1995
Banned
The issue is that Yugoslavia, whether under monarchy or diet-Communism, wasn't ever that stable or united.
It was constantly menaced with ethnic tensions, and being menaced by outside forces. The Yugoslav monarchy eventually had to be maintained brute central force, and Tito maintained his "federal system" with brute central force as well.
You can say that Milosevic was a bastard for stoking ethnic tensions, but Milosevic was standing on top of a lot of kindling: ethnic disputes between Kosovars and Serbs, economic decline etc. While the right thing to do should've been to solve these tensions, it was easier to start shouting about Serb identity.
To put it mildly, there was very little holding the nation together, and thus it was easy for the nation to crumble when it did.
It was constantly menaced with ethnic tensions, and being menaced by outside forces. The Yugoslav monarchy eventually had to be maintained brute central force, and Tito maintained his "federal system" with brute central force as well.
You can say that Milosevic was a bastard for stoking ethnic tensions, but Milosevic was standing on top of a lot of kindling: ethnic disputes between Kosovars and Serbs, economic decline etc. While the right thing to do should've been to solve these tensions, it was easier to start shouting about Serb identity.
To put it mildly, there was very little holding the nation together, and thus it was easy for the nation to crumble when it did.