Sports What Ifs.

[Nivek]

The'94 strike/lockout wasalmostthe'93 one in baseball. I forget how, but some agreements were made to keep the players from striking during the playoffs.

What if those break down and 1993 is cancelled. There is fan outrage, but slightly less - they got a completed season, andsome could even argue that Blue Jays andBraves would have just met again for the Series.

The big thing is 1994 - do the owners still try replacements players? Is the regular season just 100 games instead of the 144 of 1995? Instead of ripken's streak (broken the next year) is Tony Gwynn credited with saving the game by hitting .400?What would the standings have been likewith so little player movement possible? The Indians still were going to try to get a pitcher so maybe Dennis Martinez comes to Cleveland, but they might not have been quite as built up so they might finish in 2nd but not quite a wild car; Baltimore was also good that year.

I might post this on the baseball fever forums, too. It's interesting to consider. Maybe the Expos are saved with a 65-35 record or something.

The 94 Season itself was an aberration, the CBA expired in December 93 yet the owners refused to bargain, they can't strike on playoffs, people forget it was the lack of a real CBA that escalated the whole mess

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

The 94 Season itself was an aberration, the CBA expired in December 93 yet the owners refused to bargain, they can't strike on playoffs, people forget it was the lack of a real CBA that escalated the whole mess

I see, thanks. So, their only real options were at the start of '94 and the middle.

Could a strike in February have caused the whole season to be missed?Would owners have tried to start with replacements at midseason jsut to have something?

 

[Nivek]

I see, thanks. So, their only real options were at the start of '94 and the middle.

Could a strike in February have caused the whole season to be missed?Would owners have tried to start with replacements at midseason jsut to have something?

IIRC the middle was because both sides were playing as the senate hearing about antitrust left a loophole if the senators voted there was a monopoly, that forced the owner to bargain or get shermaned , but the opposite ended up happening, finishing the 'defacto extension', has the senate say there's not case/hearing or voted the other way....well the season would have been kept going but the owner scrambling for an agreement...as the alternative is well....

If the senate say no to the case(the exception covered, thus not need for a hearing) them the CBA is kaput

Could a strike in February have caused the whole season to be missed?Would owners have tried to start with replacements at midseason jsut to have something?

There a thing...Canada forbids the use of any kind of scabs and the Toronto and Montreal governments already said they would also lock down any kind of scab player.

 

[AltSptHst]

The'94 strike/lockout wasalmostthe'93 one in baseball. I forget how, but some agreements were made to keep the players from striking during the playoffs.

What if those break down and 1993 is cancelled. There is fan outrage, but slightly less - they got a completed season, andsome could even argue that Blue Jays and Braves would have just met again for the Series.

The big thing is 1994 - do the owners still try replacements players? Is the regular season just 100 games instead of the 144 of 1995? Instead of ripken's streak (broken the next year) is Tony Gwynn credited with saving the game by hitting .400? What would the standings have been likewith so little player movement possible? The Indians still were going to try to get a pitcher so maybe Dennis Martinez comes to Cleveland, but they might not have been quite as built up so they might finish in 2nd but not quite a wild car; Baltimore was also good that year.

I think the CBA ended at the end of 1993, which was why ther threat was there for the playoffs.

If this happens, I really believe that baseball doesn't come back until 1995. I see this eating up enough of the 1994 season to cancel it. They probably need someone like a Sonia Sotomayor to save it.

Also, if it's resolved sooner, and the 95 season starts on time, maybe MJ doesn't come back to the NBA for another year (I believe that he came back in March 95 because he didn't want to be a replacement player, and the NBA saw a window to lure back their major cash cow).

 

[Nivek]

the NBA

Ended his secret suspension

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

If this happens, I really believe that baseball doesn't come back until 1995. I see this eating up enough of the 1994 season to cancel it. They probably need someone like a Sonia Sotomayor to save it.

Does this hurt baseball more? At least Gans had something. Although the low minors might still play.

I can just imagine baseball owners and broadcasters trying to convince fans to watch it.

 

[Alberta89]

Expansion teams are designed to be bad. Owners wouldn't allow expansion in the first place if they weren't guaranteed to be a punching bag to start off with. Expansion drafts exist to give teams filler players that they can have to merely survive the season without being blown out of the water, they aren't designed to actually give a team enough good players to compete year 1. The only reason the Jags were good in their 2nd season because they traded draft capital for Mark Brunell, found Jimmy Smith off a practice squad, signed Keenan McCardell in free agency, and their first round draft pick ended being a Hall of Fame tackle. They got absurdly lucky that all four of them ended up being good enough to carry an offense into a deep postseason run in Year 2, doing it Year 1 is practically impossible.

You might say "well Vegas made the Stanley Cup in their first year", well the NHL expansion draft and the NFL expansion draft are two different cans of beans.
- The existing NHL teams submitted a list of protected players that the Knights weren't allowed to pick, in contrast the NFL teams submitted a list of unprotected players that the Panthers and Jags were only allowed to choose from. This gave the Knights a wider range of players to choose from.
- The Knights also took advantage of this by making side trades in exchange for picking certain players in the draft. So, say the Minnesota Wild have 5 defensemen that they like, but they're only allowed to protect 3 of them. Instead of just letting the Knights take one, Minnesota instead trades another player to Vegas in exchange for the Knights selecting a different person instead. These types of moves greatly increases both the quality and the quantity of available players, and this will never happen in the NFL because the players eligible to be selected are by definition players that they want to get rid of.
- Lastly, NHL teams have far fewer players on their team, which magnified the impact of qualify players. The Panthers and Jaguars (smartly) stayed away from overpaid vets like Mark Rypien, Chris Doleman, and Michael Dean Perry because their large salary hits wouldn't justify it, even if they were marginally better than the players those teams ended up picking. Both NFL teams were looking to minimize the amount of salary gotten from the expansion draft partly because of the ballooning price of rookie contracts (Tony Boselli was the highest paid player on the Jags in 1995). Meanwhile, the Golden Knights were glad to eat salary when they felt the price was right. Chris Doleman and Reilly Smith carried around the same percentage of the cap, but Doleman is one of 11 players on the field and one of 50 on the roster, whereas Smith is one of 5 players on the ice and one of 23 on the roster, which makes his deal a lot easier to swallow.

The Jaguars cannot make Super Bowl XXX. They only got to the Conference Championship game for Super Bowl XXXI through essentially sheer luck. Yes they made shrewd moves to put them in position to get lucky but there's no way this happens a year early, and better. Vegas did it, but only because the NHL expansion draft is a lot more forgiving than the NFL expansion drafts.

Didn't Tampa Bay also make the conference championship in like their 3rd season?

 

[Jim Smitty]

Didn't Tampa Bay also make the conference championship in like their 3rd season?

4th season

 

[packmanwiscy]

Didn't Tampa Bay also make the conference championship in like their 3rd season?

The Bucs made it to the NFC Championship game in their 4th season, which is practically an eternity compared to 1 or 2 seasons. Only 2 players from the expansion draft were still in Tampa by then. By 1979 the Bucs were able to have four years of draft picks, trades, and waiver wire hunting to build a team and shed most of the terrible players they got from the expansion draft

 

[Alberta89]

The Bucs made it to the NFC Championship game in their 4th season, which is practically an eternity compared to 1 or 2 seasons. Only 2 players from the expansion draft were still in Tampa by then. By 1979 the Bucs were able to have four years of draft picks, trades, and waiver wire hunting to build a team and shed most of the terrible players they got from the expansion draft

Thanks. Up until this point I thought that the NFL expansion system favored the new teams, but now I realize it was just good management and luck.

 

[Alberta89]

The 94 Season itself was an aberration, the CBA expired in December 93 yet the owners refused to bargain, they can't strike on playoffs, people forget it was the lack of a real CBA that escalated the whole mess

So what if we had a lockout similar to 2022 that got solved before it could cancel any games? In that scenario, I think the Braves win the Series over Chicago and Ken Griffey Jr hits 65 homers. I know it's unrealistic but just go with it.

 

[Nivek]

So what if we had a lockout similar to 2022 that got solved before it could cancel any games? In that scenario, I think the Braves win the Series over Chicago and Ken Griffey Jr hits 65 homers. I know it's unrealistic but just go with it.

The owners have to be willing to negotiate and wouldn't be a lockout,as there's not CBA, that is why 94 was a strike

 

[packmanwiscy]

Thanks. Up until this point I thought that the NFL expansion system favored the new teams, but now I realize it was just good management and luck.

The 1995 expansion were also by far the friendliest of of the 4 modern NFL expansion drafts. A lot of people see the 1995 expansion draft as an overcorrection to the dreadful results of the 1976 expansion draft. The Buccaneers of course went winless in their first season and the Seahawks only won 2 games in 1976, one of those wins coming against Tampa. Yes they became competent teams by the end of the decade but those first years really put a black stain on the process. So when the new crop of teams were established in 1995 the NFL tried to make these teams not absolutely dreadful

I said earlier in the convo that the recent NHL expansion drafts benefited from the existing teams having to pick a list of players that the new teams weren't allowed to take, rather than the 1995 expansion drafts having existing teams pick a list of players that new teams WERE allowed to take. However in 1976 the NFL did it like the recent NHL drafts and made the existing teams protect certain players, but this ended up being terrible. Why? There's a few reasons

- The 1976 NFL expansion had a larger proportion of their roster protected (29 of 43 compared to 11 of 23)

- NHL teams, especially compared to 1976 NFL teams, are more depth-focused. In the NHL your third string wingers and defenders still get sizeable playing time even in the Stanley Cup Finals. In the NFL your backup linemen won't get very many snaps, your backup wide receivers only play when your starter gets tired or get hurt. The existing teams aren't really losing a whole lot here, and NFL backups are generally proportionately worse than the starters compared to NHL backups and starters

- There's way more roster turnover in the NFL. The bench end of NFL players usually crash out of the league in a few seasons, a sizeable amount of players picked by the Buccaneers and the Seahawks were never intending on playing in the NFL ever again. Their teams didn't protect them because they knew they weren't losing anything. None of the NHL players the Golden Knights or the Kraken really had that problem

The first two points are gonna happen either way regardless of how you try the NFL expansion draft. NFL teams are roughly half starters and half bench players and existing NFL teams are never going to their starters to be available in the expansion draft without their permission. However the third point is what the 90's NFL really focused on. By going to existing teams submitting a list of players available to be picked, this ensured the league could vet the players to see if they would actually play for the expansion teams. The expansion drafts are meant to give teams base-level players to surround a team around but when half the players can't even play for you, it kinda defeats the purpose of the expansion draft. Depth isn't as important in the NFL but the 76 Buccaneers were terrible because once a few guys went down they didn't have NFL-caliber players to replace them. The league wanted to make sure that all of the players selected by the Jags and Panthers would at least try to play for them. The players from the 1995 expansion draft had no real difference makers, but they did at leasttry to play for their expansion teams, which is a helluva lot better than what happened with the Bucs. The other big difference between the 1976 expansion teams and the 1995 teams was free agency. Free agency in the NFL was very new in 1995, player contracts were way different in 1976. If the Jags or Panthers didn't like what they wanted in the expansion or college drafts, they could plug any holes in free agency. This is where Jimmy Smith, Keenan McCardell, Wesley Walls, Kevin Greene, and Sam Mills came from. This was just not an option for Tampa

When the Browns expansion draft was drawn up, the league relaxed many of the injury/retirement precautions that they set up. The Packers offered up Reggie White, even though he already dead set on retiring. In 1999, teams could protect an even wider part of their teams, which prevented the Browns really providing a base of support. A far fewer proportion of expansion draftees played for the Browns in comparison to the Jags and Panthers. The Browns were also rather hastily constructed; Jacksonville and Carolina were award the expansion teams in late 1993 and had and entire offseason to hire executives and scouts and stuff before spending the 1994 season just scouting and prepping for the expansion draft and free agency. The Browns were formally awarded in September of 1998, meaning ownership spent most of the season assembling a staff rather than prepping for the expansion draft and stuff. Carolina and Jacksonville were given much more time to prepare a vision for the future so right from day one there were able to execute and implement it, the Browns just didn't have the time to do that. That's probably the biggest reason why they sucked, but the expansion draft rules certainly didn't help

The 2002 expansion draft wasn't all that different than the the 1999 draft, but the big thing to note is that the Texans approached it very differently than the others. The Texans only picked 19 players, opting instead fill most of their team through free agency. Instead they targeted high-salary players that other teams were trying to offload. Famously the Texans used their first pick in the expansion draft on Tony Boselli (who ultimately never played for them, but the intent is there) but they also bit the bullet on Aaron Glenn and Gary Walker, who would both make the Pro Bowl in their first season with Houston. Unfortunately this kinda showed why expansion teams draft for the future instead of the present; the Texans were plagued by a garbage OL that never seemed to get fixed and the front office couldn't really build a defense around the aging Glenn and Walker

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

The owners have to be willing to negotiate and wouldn't be a lockout,as there's not CBA, that is why 94 was a strike

We saw the flukiness of a 60-game season in 2020 - and it was almost only 50. I wonder how that would have looked if 1994 had been that way, with owners finally caving in early July just in time for a 1990-style opening (a few days to get ready, 3 weeks of camps, and maybe only playing division rivals -allowing for48 games, 16 against eachoponent for the 4-team divisions, 12 for the 5-team ones. (Or maybe 54 to make it a full1/3 of the season, with 6 games agaisnt some other rival.(s).

Yeah, they probably jsut cancel the season and let fans be satisfied, if they can be, with minor league games, but its fun to imagine them trying to push for fans to come back to see the utter chaos that would result. Especially if they expanded the payoffs even more for that season.

It'd be a fun reply, anway.

 

[Alberta89]

Here's a what if from the annals of hockey: What if Toronto didn't trade for Tom Kurvers?

For more information, please be directed to the 1991 nhl draft, and the Eric Lindros debacle.

If you wish to have an influence on the outcome, please check out my TL, Tank til you drop. We currently are having a bidding event for Oilers star Jimmy Carson.

 

[kinnikuniverse]

Possible NBA Finals in the 90s if Michael Jordan never existed.

85-90 same as OTL

1991: Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 over either Chicago Bulls or Detroit Pistons

With Jordan not existing, Chicago instead build their team around Scottie Pippen and shooting guard Alvin Robertson. However, i doubt they'd overcome the Pistons, but even if they did, i believe that the Lakers would win it and Magic Johnson gets his sixth ring before retiring due to AIDS.

1992: Portland Trailblazers 4-3 over Cleveland Cavaliers

This is where the fun begins. The New York Knicks and Patrick Ewing starts their rise, but they get stopped by the deep roster and the pick and roll of Cleveland, with Mark Price, Brad Daugherty and Larry Nance giving many troubles to the Knocks's defense, winning a hard fought Eastern conference finals in 6 games to face Clyde Drexler and the Portland Trailblazers. The series is tight, and it comes down to a game 7, where Portland's secret weapon, Arvydas Sabonis, finally coming over following the fall of the Soviet Union, combines with Clyde and shows off his revolutionary skill sets for a big man as Portland wins game 7 and secure their 2nd NBA Title, with Sabonis becoming the first european player to be called Finals MVP.


1993: Phoenix Suns 4-2 over New York Knicks

The Knicks, now more experienced and deeper, avenge their conference finals loss to Cleveland by sweeping them, with Patrick Ewing demolishing Brad Daugherty in the paint. In the finals, the Phoenix Suns, Boosted by the arrivals of Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman, awaited them, and what followed would be one of the most physical and gritty finals in NBA history, with both teams dishing out both great basketball and lots of punches and body checks as tempers flared many times. In the end, Barkley and Dan Majerle took over on offense while Rodman contained Ewing as Phoenix closes it out in 6 games and win their first ever title, with Barkley named finals MVP.

1994: Houston Rockets 4-3 over New York Knicks

Same as OTL, with Hakeem Olajuwon's legendary block of John Starks's 3-point shot at the end of game 6 leading to Houston winning game 7 and their first title. The Knicks are turning into the basketball equivalent of the Buffalo Bills...

1994-1995: New Jersey Nets 4-0 San Antonio Spurs

In one of the craziest Playoffs in hsitory, the New Jersey Nets, led by 1990 1st overall pick Gary Payton, 1991 first round pick Dikembe Mutombo and 1992 free agent signing Drazen Petrovic, defeats Charlotte in the first round, then defeats the Orlando Magic 4-2, with Mutombo successfully eating a young and inexperienced Shaq alive while Payton shut down Penny Hardaway, leading to Mozart conducting his symphony of destruction, including a 30-point night in game 6, on the way to taking on Reggie Miller and the Indiana Pacers, who single-handedly humiliated the Knicks in game 7 of thr second round.

Meanwhile, out west, Mario Elie barely missed his 3-point shot that could've won the Houston Rockets the series against the Phoenix Suns in game 7 of the second round. However, injuries suffered by Dennis Rodman in that series, along with Kevin Johnson hurting himself against San Antonio in the west finals allowed a sublime David Robinson and the Spurs to make the finals for the first time ever.

Alas, the Nets team in front of them were simply too deep for the underdog Spurs, and Mutombo would sut down Robinson as Petrovic wins Finals MVP, becoming the second european to win that honor.

1996: Orlando Magic 4-2 over Seattle Supersonics

Motivated by the loss to the Nets, Shaq and Penny led Orlando to the best record in the east and steamrolled the playoffs, easily dispatching Detroit, Atlanta and sweeping the Nets , who defeated the Knicks in a memorable new york derby, before facing the spirited Seattle Supersonics of Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf and the breakout player of the year, point guard Sam Cassels. While they split the first two games, Saq and Penny easily won games 3 and 4. Kemp and Cassels had a great game 5, but the Magic's offense proved too much for the Sonics as they win their first NBA title, becomign the first of the recent expansion franchises to win a title.

1997: New York Knicks 4-3 over Utah Jazz

Finally, Patrick Ewing got his ring! Boosted by the emergence of late draft pick Latrell Sprewell, Patrick Ewing and co. Barely squeezed by Alonzo Mourning's Miami Heat and defeated a rejuvenated Bulls squad led by Pippen and Dennis Rodman in the east finals to face the Jazz. This time, Pat Riley finally figured out the pick and roll, and Sprewell would provide the spark that made the difference as New York finally wins its third title.

1998: Utah Jazz 4-1 over Indiana Pacers

Utah comes back with a vengeance in 1997-1998. Jerry Sloan's tactics shuts down Reggie Miller and the Pacers to give Mormon land its first NBA title.

1999: San Antonio Spurs 4-1 over New York Knicks

Same as OTL.

2000: Indiana Pacers 4-2 over Portland Trailblazers

The Portland Trailblazers pulls off the upset and closes out agaisnt Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, taking on the Pacers. Reggie Miller delivered a vintage performance, while the much improved defense from Jermaine O'Neal and Antonio Davis kept Damon Stoudamire and Rasheed Wallace at bay.

 

[Nivek]

Michael Jordan is playing baseball

Fixed for ya mate

 

[AltSptHst]

1991: Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 over either Chicago Bulls or Detroit Pistons

With Jordan not existing, Chicago instead build their team around Scottie Pippen and shooting guard Alvin Robertson. However, i doubt they'd overcome the Pistons, but even if they did, i believe that the Lakers would win it and Magic Johnson gets his sixth ring before retiring due to AIDS.

If MJ didn't exist, the NBA would still be on CBS, and the Lakers wouldn't be there. NBC fixed it for them because they wanted Magic vs. Michael. Without MJ, I see a Celtics-Blazers final with the Blazers winning.

2000: Indiana Pacers 4-2 over Portland Trailblazers

The Portland Trailblazers pulls off the upset and closes out agaisnt Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, taking on the Pacers. Reggie Miller delivered a vintage performance, while the much improved defense from Jermaine O'Neal and Antonio Davis kept Damon Stoudamire and Rasheed Wallace at bay.

Portland still had Jermaine O'Neal in 1999-00. They didn't trade him away until the summer of 2000.

 

[AltSptHst]

My goodness. I never heard of this story before. Tragic:

Tragedy and Hope: A Prospect, a Scout and a Pop Fly

Since 1974, one of the great scouts in MLB history has been haunted by his role in a young superstar’s demise.

www.si.com

This guy was supposed to be the successor to Roberto Clemente in right field. He was tearing up the Carolina League at 19. Then, tragedy struck.

If the Pirates had this guy with Parker and Stargell, maybe they win another WS or two. Never know.

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

The Drive andThe Fumble were much more memorable, of course, but Cleveland also lost to Denver in the January, 1990 AFC title game. They were down big early, but Bernie Kosar got them without 3 to start the 2nd half before they lost - they didn't score again after that.

But what if there was The Break?

A slightly different kickoff and a sudden gust leads to the receiver muffing the ensuing kickoff, and theBrowns recover and go up for the first time. The Broncos are forced to punt, and Eric Metcalf, with the Browns having the momentum, gets a big returnand they go on to win despite Elway's attempt at another comeback.

The Super Bowl is probably the same - 55-10 San Francisco. Most agreed that the 49ers were unstoppable that year, but hey, Cleveland got there, right?

Does Bud Carson still get fired? I'm sure it's not midway through 1990, as bad as the Browns were, they actually went to the Super Bowl, and Marty Schottenheimer had been fired for, you know, not doing that. So, I wonder if Carson would remain on as the Browns head coach at least a year longer? If not, Art Modell is going to get a much worse reputation for hiring and firing coaches; he fires a winner just because of a couple tough losses, than he fires a winner because he does what the other guy couldn't - does Modell think he's George Steinbrenner and want to win every year?

Either way, this can impact Bill Belicheck. He got his first gig with the Browns, and lasted several years. If Caron isn't fired after 1990, of course Belicheck goes elsewhere - who else was hiring in the 1990-1 offseason? Or does he wait a year because he figures the Browns will be looking soon?

If Carson is fired anyway, does Belicheck have second thoughts?

Or, was Belicheck a hot enough commodity that Modell fires Carson just because he has a chance to land Belicheck?

My goodness. I never heard of this story before. Tragic:

Tragedy and Hope: A Prospect, a Scout and a Pop Fly

Since 1974, one of the great scouts in MLB history has been haunted by his role in a young superstar’s demise.

www.si.com

This guy was supposed to be the successor to Roberto Clemente in right field. He was tearing up the Carolina League at 19. Then, tragedy struck.

If the Pirates had this guy with Parker and Stargell, maybe they win another WS or two. Never know.

I hadn't either. Perhaps a leadoff man in place of Omar Moreno for the '79 team? I presume he'd be called up by then, though probably just a rookie, maybe his 2nd year.

with Willie Stargell there to mentor him, hopefully he wouldn't fall victim to the drug problems on that club in 1980.