Some Arnhem WIs

[Panzerfaust 150]

Ok,
I suspect this has probably been asked before, but I decided to give this a whirl....

1. WI the planners had attached D Coy, Ox and Bucks (of Pegasus Bridge fame) to British 1st Airborne to affect a coup de main against Arnhem Bridge and wait for Frost's 2nd Battalion (which did historically get to the bridge, so it was doable).

2. Or, in a related WI, how about more of Freddie Gough's Jeeps survive the landings?

3. Or, WI the "Ridgeway option" of a mass drop closer to the bridge and the risk of an initial 10% casualties to the force due to injuries on the drop?

4. Another interesting WI is that XXX Corps takes the 82nd up on their offer to ride as infantry on their tanks to get through to Arnhem and relieve 1st Airborne.

5. Somebody at British 2nd Army realizes the plan would have failed the Dutch pre-war staff college test, and then decides to instead, use the drop as a diversion and make an assault crossing of the Lower Rhine upstream or downstream?

6. Browning decides that going in with the initial lifts isn't the best of ideas and that the space he and his staff are taking up are better taken by troops and equipment making the assault?

 

[hammo1j]

5. Somebody at British 2nd Army realizes the plan would have failed the Dutch pre-war staff college test, and then decides to instead, use the drop as a diversion and make an assault crossing of the Lower Rhine upstream or downstream?

IIRC correctly an intelligence officer correctly warned the powers that be that SS Panzer 10 was refitting in the area. He was silenced for being too negative!

 

[pompejus]

5. Somebody at British 2nd Army realizes the plan would have failed the Dutch pre-war staff college test, and then decides to instead, use the drop as a diversion and make an assault crossing of the Lower Rhine upstream or downstream?

I loved that part in a bridge too far.

 

[Marky Bunny]

Having visited Arnhem myself six years ago. The most obvious change I would have made is to have landed troops closer to the bridge, and agree with the idea of Howard landing a gliner on the bridge itself, and getting both ends of it.
Also people don't really understand how far it was from the airborne headquarters is to the bridge until you actually travel it yourself.

 

[Orville_third]

Two WIs that have nothing to do with military history- but could have an influence on film history...
Among those injured at Arnhem was a British tank commander named Terence Young. He would later recover and go on to become a well-known film director. But what if he had been killed? (Terence Young is credited, in part, with creating the image of James Bond, both through his directing of the first two Bond movies, plus his coaching of Sean Connery in the role.)
Another future celebrity who lived in the vicinity of Arnhem and volunteered to tend the injured was a young Dutch girl named Audrey Hepburn. What if she had been injured or killed?

 

[Kevin Renner]

Another future celebrity who lived in the vicinity of Arnhem and volunteered to tend the injured was a young Dutch girl named Audrey Hepburn. What if she had been injured or killed?

I thought she was Belgian? Well she was born there at any rate

 

[burmafrd]

Trying to do all that up one two lane road was just too much. Expecting to take all the bridges was just plain stupid. Some of the bridges had to be strengthened anyway to take sherman tanks.
I really doubt that the plan would ever have worked. I think it went about as well as could have been expected considering the incredible stupidity of the british "intelligence" in ignoring the Dutch Underground who had always been VERY reliable with their data.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Trying to do all that up one two lane road was just too much. Expecting to take all the bridges was just plain stupid. Some of the bridges had to be strengthened anyway to take sherman tanks.
I really doubt that the plan would ever have worked. I think it went about as well as could have been expected considering the incredible stupidity of the british "intelligence" in ignoring the Dutch Underground who had always been VERY reliable with their data.

Um the Dutch resistance was the most infiltrated resistance movement in Europe. The Germans managed to even get the Brits to drop them supplies on a regular basis during Op. Englandspiel. It is not surprising that they ignored the information when the couldn't trust the movement in general.

 

[The Sandman]

Um the Dutch resistance was the most infiltrated resistance movement in Europe. The Germans managed to even get the Brits to drop them supplies on a regular basis during Op. Englandspiel. It is not surprising that they ignored the information when the couldn't trust the movement in general.

IIRC, though, the Dutch who'd been captured and "turned" kept sending the English the particular code phrases and such to indicate that they'd been captured. The English completely ignored them and kept sending them stuff anyway.

 

[The Dean]

I thought she was Belgian? Well she was born there at any rate

English father who worked in Brussels, Dutch mother, went to school in Kent at Elham.

 

[burmafrd]

British intelligence mistakes littered the ETO. From D DaY where they ignored the French warnings that the 352nd Coastal Defense Division had deployed in strength to the area soon to be known as Omaha Beach; to the total mess at Arnhem; to the complete failure to spot the massive preparations for the Battle of the Bulge. Anytime they had to rely on something other then Enigma intercepts they failed.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Um the Dutch resistance was the most infiltrated resistance movement in Europe. The Germans managed to even get the Brits to drop them supplies on a regular basis during Op. Englandspiel. It is not surprising that they ignored the information when the couldn't trust the movement in general.

I don't think the groups that were involved in the Englandspiel were even conected with the groups that gave the intel of Arnhem. Mostly because those groups had been busted already.

 

[Nytram01]

British intelligence mistakes littered the ETO. From D DaY where they ignored the French warnings that the 352nd Coastal Defense Division had deployed in strength to the area soon to be known as Omaha Beach; to the total mess at Arnhem; to the complete failure to spot the massive preparations for the Battle of the Bulge. Anytime they had to rely on something other then Enigma intercepts they failed.

And these are purely British mistakes are they? The Americans, despite being senior partners in this endeavor, were not party to the information Britain was recieving or getting information through their own methods?

The Americans could not act on the information themselves? Despite Ike Eisenhower being Supreme Commander of Allied Expeditionary Forces in Europe and in the position more or less guarenteed to recieve this intelligence he is blameless for not making use of it? Blameless for not realising the Germans strength and preparations for Market Garden and the Bulge? Doing nothing to prepare for or act against it? Allowing such battles to go ahead despite knowing they were certain to either fail or cause unnessary casualties?

Shoot not the messenger who discovers the information, shoot the executioner who fails to use it.

 

[SirCliveWolfe]

Trying to do all that up one two lane road was just too much. Expecting to take all the bridges was just plain stupid. Some of the bridges had to be strengthened anyway to take sherman tanks.

You make a valid point, but there are some PODs that may make it work

I really doubt that the plan would ever have worked. I think it went about as well as could have been expected considering the incredible stupidity of the british "intelligence" in ignoring the Dutch Underground who had always been VERY reliable with their data.

It doesn't even come down to the Dutch, British aerial intelligence saw the SS division but the planners ignored this, not British intelligence... you use of quotes makes me wonder if you are not trying to make some sort of "other" point?

British intelligence mistakes littered the ETO. From D DaY where they ignored the French warnings that the 352nd Coastal Defense Division had deployed in strength to the area soon to be known as Omaha Beach; to the total mess at Arnhem; to the complete failure to spot the massive preparations for the Battle of the Bulge. Anytime they had to rely on something other then Enigma intercepts they failed.

This plainley answers my question above, but I have one for you is it just British inteligence you are prejudice against... or the British in general?