kham_coc
Banned
Yes, the only (plausible) thing that could keep the UK out of the war at this point, is Ireland kicking off.
"Russia First" German strategy in ww1?
- Thread starter August II Mocny
- Start date
No decision was made on August 2 to go to war. Do you have a source for this? On this site I read:
By the way, this whole discussion within the cabinet is in the context of an anticipated attack by Germany on France. In TTL, France is not attacked, making this discussion no longer relevant.
kham_coc
Banned
But the central problem remains, the conservatives wanted war - So the liberals would either furnish said war, or be replaced by a coalition.
That's why the letter from Bonar law mattered as much as it did, because that's what he laid out.
So if Germany swallows the british demand, to not have their navy wage war against a country that declared war against it, and doesn't try go through Belgium, well then presumably the next step is denying Germany the right to traverse into the North sea, and if all of that can't supply them with a CB, they would think of something else.
Because it's either that, or be replaced. There is a reason a cabinet that did not want to go to war, still set out policies that lead to war - And that is because a minority wanted war, and with the conservatives they had the votes.
Aphrodite
Banned
That's not what Runciman says. He's backed up by Samuel. Harcourt notes he wants Germany to declare war on Britain. Grey expands the defense of the French coast to include protecting French shipping because he knows the cabinet
Will back him.
Putting the French coast under British protection is an act of war, protecting French shipping is an act of war. Burns thought so and resigned nobody else did. Morley, Beachamp and Simon would as well, the latter two use Belgium to get back to the cabinet.
Asquith and Lansdowne think it's a DOW. Most importantly, so does the Kaiser.
Your the one who needs British neutrality. Your argument is that they won't because they used Belgium as the excuse. Well, they can use whatever they like.
The peace movement collapses with the German declaration of war on Russia. Harcourt notes that many peace MPs will fight over Luxembourg.
In reality, the threat of a German victory is driving it (or the French and Russians winning without Britain which is what would happen in your threads).
So to recap:
We have Britain rejecting the Kaiser's acceptance of Britain's proposal of Western neutrality
We have the cabinet authorizing acts of war against Germany
We have the parliamentary coalition for established
What more do you want?
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If they really wanted war, even when there is no threat whatsoever to France or Britain, then they are very evil and bear most of the blame for the escalation of the war.
The decision will certainly take longer in TTL, by which time there will probably already be a stalemate on the continent (and an Irish civil war).
Agree, to the extent that Britain primarily wants to maintain the status quo on the continent. My point is that in TTL the continental powers are balancing each other because of a stalemate. So what would the British care about? And if Germany finally wins in the east, probably due to a Russian revolution, what does the British care if Poland comes under German rule?
Uhm.. a reason?
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kham_coc
Banned
They wanted a good war to rouse national sentiment to silence the irish nationalists and the socialists, no one thought it would be a total war, it would just see AL, some colonies, Galicia and the German navy neutralised and then the UK could continue with it's imperial peace where the natives and the proles knew their place.
Aphrodite
Banned
Who said they wanted war? The British wanted peace like everyone except Austria.
Who says no threat to France and Britain? There's a threat it's just not immediate.
France rejects Grey's neutrality plan not Germany. That can't be debated.
Why? The threat of war is immediate. If you mean two weeks while the French mobilize, ok. But they are definitely going to war
How do the British know that? How do you know that? The Germans don't think they can hold the Western border with four armies. They don't think they can do it with five.
Besides, their plan would abandon the Lorraine ore fields without a fight. The war is good as over- no the Germans can't just buy up and ship 60% of American steel production.
Try reading Bonar Law's letter. Read Grey's speech and ask what changes if France is beaten before or after Russia
You propose that Germany adopt a plan based on the hope that Britain might be neutral and if they do intervene you have no solution. I think it's obvious why the Germans have no interest
completely agree, lets face it nearly every party in the conflict let this war happen to some extent if not the whole government then at least a powerful faction of it. the only country i would say is totally innocent in this whole mess and actively sought not to escalate the situation is Belgium.
Wow, that's a lot of strange assumptions and irrelevant details. I feel there is quite a bit of repetition in this discussion, so this will be my last comment and will be general.
WW1 was the result of a chain reaction, in which every country had the choice to go to war or not (except Belgium), as stated several times in this thread. The best thing, of course, is that there had been no war. Second best is that the war is limited to (eastern) Europe, as an 'east first' strategy seems to do.
The British decision to go to war is the crucial link that turned this European war into a world war. With that, Britain is also responsible for the further spread of the war (resulting in 'Versailles', WW2, holocaust, cold war, conflicts in the middle east, etc, etc). Congratulations Britain!
In OTL, the reason why Britain went to war is at least clear: To defend France. In TTL, France doesn't need defense, in fact, it chooses the offensive! This completely changes the political situation, makes those cabinet discussions irrelevant, and takes away the need for Britain to go to war.
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David Flin
Gone Fishin'
Hang on - Britain is responsible for the Holocaust?
That's rather a stretch. Maybe, just maybe, Germany might take a bit of responsibility for the Holocaust.
And again, there's the repetition of the myth that Versailles was a harsh treaty. It wasn't. It was comparable with other treaties - and less onerous than the Treaty of Versailles imposed on France following the Franco-Prussian war.
TDM
Kicked
And yet when Britain suggested peace talks
Britain offers to mediate (23 July)
On 23 July, British Foreign Secretary Sir Edward Grey made a mediation offer with a promise that his government would attempt to influence Russia to influence Serbia, and Germany to influence Austria-Hungary as the best way of stopping a general war.[110] Wilhelm wrote on the margins of Lichnowsky's dispatch containing Grey's offer that Britain's "condescending orders" were to be totally rejected, and Austria-Hungary would not retract any of its "impossible demands" on Serbia. He continued: "Am I to do that? Wouldn’t think of it! What does he [Grey] mean by ‘impossible’?"[110] Jagow ordered Lichnowsky to tell Grey of the supposed German ignorance of the Austrian ultimatum, and that Germany regarded Austro-Serbian relations as "an internal affair of Austria-Hungary, in which we had no standing to intervene".[110] Jagow's statement did much to discredit Germany in British eyes. Lichnowsky reported to Berlin "If we do not join the mediation, all faith here in us and in our love of peace will be shattered."[110]At the same time, Grey met with opposition from the Russian Ambassador who warned that a conference with Germany, Italy, France, and Britain serving as the mediators between Austria and Russia would break apart the informal Triple Entente.[106] Sazonov accepted Grey's proposal for a conference despite his reservations about the dangers of splitting the Triple Entente,[106] Grey wrote to Sazonov that Britain did not have a cause to war with Serbia, but subsequent developments might drag Britain into the conflict.[note 14]
this was also just after in response to the Serbian reply
The German shipping tycoon Albert Ballin recalled that when the German government heard a misleading report that Serbia had accepted the ultimatum, there was "disappointment", but "tremendous joy" when it learned that the Serbs had not accepted all of the Austrian terms.[103] When Ballin suggested Wilhelm end his North Sea cruise to deal with the crisis, the German Foreign Ministry flatly stated the Emperor should continue his cruise because "everything must be done to ensure that he [Wilhelm] does not interfere in things with his pacifist ideas".[106] At the same time, a message was sent to Berchtold from his ambassador in Berlin reminding him "Here every delay in the beginning of war operations is regarded as signifying the danger that foreign powers might interfere. We are urgently advised to proceed without delay."[106]
.....
The Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Sazonov sent a message to all of the great powers asking them to pressure Austria to extend the deadline of the ultimatum.[108] Sazonov asked the Austrian government to back its claims of Serbian complicity in the killing of Franz Ferdinand by releasing the results of its official inquiry, which the Austrians refused to do as they lacked any conclusive as opposed to circumstantial evidence.[108] Several times, the Austrians refused Russian requests to extend the deadline, despite warnings that an Austro-Serbian war could easily cause a world war.[109] Sazonov accused the Austrian ambassador of intending to war with Serbia.[note 13]
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TDM
Kicked
Oh poor Germany forced by the British to murder millions of people in an ideologically driven genocide.
The bolded part of the above is offensive rubbish of the highest order. Britain was not responsible for the Holocaust happening. Germany going raving mad and carrying out genocide was entirely on them and nothing to do with Britain.
Aphrodite
Banned
Actually, everyone wanted peace except Austria.
The Kaiser thought the Serbian reply the basis for talks.
Russia was prepared to accept some pretty harsh terms on Serbia.
France would have been happy with anything Russia accepted
Britain begged the Kaiser to make on offer Russia could accept or if Russia rejected it, Britain could disassociate from Russia.
Grey and the Kaiser both independently came up with stop in Belgrade.
Dang it, he's onto us, the secret British run extermination camps as part of The Final Solution have been discovered! Deploy 007 Immediately!
Don't you think you're reaching just a tad with that procolomation. After all, who was it who actually started the War? And the one in 1939, and who was killing Jews by the literal trainload again?
Hint. It wasn't the British.