Plausibility check: Prussian-Russian minority exchange

Eurofed

Banned
Eurofed vs ESA? The two deserve each other :D

At least I'm mostly impartial in my rabid anti-nationalist enthusiasm for big imperial blobs to spread across the map and take over the world, nor, I hope, I knowingly distort the truth.

As for the cage match, not going to happen. I think I have learned something about the futility of some battles. The ignore list exists for a reason.

The funny thing is that I had thought I could do Poland a little butterfly favor in the far future of my TL, in that a Polish nationality that is compacted under only one overlord (Russia) and has less problematic 1807 ethnic borders with Germany may find it slightly easier to claim self-determination, if they have a quarrel with only one of the European overlords, as opposed to both, if the German-Russian love marriage ever sours. But if it's anachronistic, it's anachronistic, and the idea needs to be buried.

As it concerns mass expulsions in early 19th century Europe, my TL shall only see the one of Balkan Muslims after the Russians have evicted the Ottomans from the region, I'm sufficiently persuaded that that is in-period, and the merciful alternative to a carnage.
 
At least I'm mostly impartial in my rabid anti-nationalist enthusiasm for big imperial blobs to spread across the map and take over the world, nor, I hope, I knowingly distort the truth.

As for the cage match, not going to happen. I think I have learned something about the futility of some battles. The ignore list exists for a reason.

That's true, I guess, but you're just so perfectly diametrically opposed to ESA it would be funny. :D
 

Eurofed

Banned
That's true, I guess, but you're just so perfectly diametrically opposed to ESA it would be funny. :D

Not in the sense that I am the rabid crypto-Nazi German nationalist that he apparently thinks I am. My sympathies for Germany only come from the fact that historically Germany has been much closer to build one of my beloved supra-national imperial hegemonies than say Poland or Romania, and that I think Germany has been given a rather unfair and harmful deal at the end of WWI and WWII. Apart from that, if ASBs had caused the Poles to conquer and assimilate everything from the Meuse to Sicily and the Don, and become the imperial overlords of Europe and the world, I could not mind less, if not for the fact that Polish looks like rather more of a pain in the butt to master as a global lingua franca than English.
 
At least I'm mostly impartial in my rabid anti-nationalist enthusiasm for big imperial blobs to spread across the map and take over the world

I don't share this enthusiasm, but I almost sigged this anyway.

Apart from that, if ASBs had caused the Poles to conquer and assimilate everything from the Meuse to Sicily and the Don, and become the imperial overlords of Europe and the world, I could not mind less, if not for the fact that Polish looks like rather more of a pain in the butt to master as a global lingua franca than English.

You should that German some rather odd grammatical constructions and word order has realize. Is that even correct?

English is a great lingua franca because it's such a mongrel language (I use this phrase with affection). I sometimes wish I wasn't a native speaker so that I could put my regional spin on it.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I don't share this enthusiasm, but I almost sigged this anyway.

You're welcome to. Differently from other occasions where I'm annoyed for being quoted out of context, I'm most proud of my outspoken and vibrant continentalism and cosmopolitanism and my equally outspoken and intense loathing for nationalism and Westphalian sovreignty. :cool::D

You should that German some rather odd grammatical constructions and word order has realize. Is that even correct?

Because no idea my language native German not is nor spoke German I do. :p :rolleyes: Why people all Germanophiles assume nationalist Germans be must ? :eek::confused:

Seriously, I apologize for my (occasional I hope) grammar and synthax slips of the tongue, but since I'm an awowed "world government" anti-nationalist, it is equally amusing and annoying to be mistaken for a nationalist. Again, with some exceptions* I'm mostly impartial in my enthusiasm for this or that state or empire to achieve the lasting imperial political unification of Europe, the Americas, or Asia.

*the imperial agent must be able to build a house that can last without widespread gratuitous or long-term misery and cohercion for its subjects, beyond the inevitable strife of the unification phase itself.

I may only strongly root for some states/empires (e.g. the Manifest Destiny USA, Napoleonic France, or the Kaiserreich) because they looked like more promishing candidates to accomplishing such a task in history, with the right nudge. But Rome remains my most preferred candidate, for many reasons. While English is arguably better than Latin as a lingua franca, no TL can be perfect (at least Latin does not have the runaway plague that English spelling has become).
 
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You're welcome to. Differently from other occasions where I'm annoyed for being quoted out of context, I'm most proud of my outspoken and vibrant continentalism and cosmopolitanism and my equally outspoken and intense loathing for nationalism and Westphalian sovreignty. :cool::D

Sorry, but anyone who cheerfully chuckles at the inadequately-explained extinction of some of whole languages isn't cosmopolitan in my book.

You do seem to insist that your Mega-Whatever enforce soul-crushing linguistic monotony on everyone. If you hate nationalism so much, what do you have against the great non-national empires like the Ottomans?
 

Eurofed

Banned
Sorry, but anyone who cheerfully chuckles at the inadequately-explained extinction of some of whole languages You do seem to insist that your Mega-Whatever enforce soul-crushing linguistic monotony on everyone.

Languages have been a powerful seed for nationalism and separatism to emerge. I would prefer to uproot all possibility for that to occur. Having said that, hand me a TL where every citizen of whatever world-spanning empire eagerly embraces bilingualism (imperial lingua franca and local language) and does not even think of channeling quaint local languages into a rallying force for bullheaded political separatism, I eagerly sign it. Does this put your unrest with my political aspirations more at ease ?

If you hate nationalism so much, what do you have against the great non-national empires like the Ottomans?

Mostly, I dislike Islam a lot.
 
Languages have been a powerful seed for nationalism and separatism to emerge.

And what is so bad about "nationalism", whatever you mean by it, that it cancels out all the inherent value of thousands of human cultures.

Mostly, I dislike Islam a lot.

*reads*

*reads again*

*gets up from computer*

*dons coat, slings emergency bag over shoulder*

*phones for a cab*

*heads for the Forth*

*takes ship for Norway*

*joins a tribe of Sami on their migration*

*seated atop his reindeer, produces laptop*

Ahem.

Would you care to justify your (bigoted, inflammatory) sentiment?
 

Susano

Banned
I think Westphalia is a pretty cool guy. Eh gets imposed undemocratcially on an unwilling population, has totally artificically borders and absolutely unfitting name, and doesnt afraid of anything [/4chanspeak]
 

Eurofed

Banned
And what is so bad about "nationalism", whatever you mean by it, that it cancels out all the inherent value of thousands of human cultures.

It feeds political separatism and Balkanization. "The inherent value of thousands of human cultures", whatever you mean by it, is not remotely worth mankind remaining divided into countless hundreds or thousands of bickering tribes. I have nothing against Abkhaz culture by itself, but if it has to be the rallying force behind Abkhazian separatism, far better that it be stomped out. The litmus test is when a culture becomes an excuse for yet another bunch of demagogue pricks to set up yet another useless little state. Unfortunately, it happens most of the time.

Would you care to justify your (bigoted, inflammatory) sentiment?

I deem that Christianity and Islam have been much more of a negative force in history than positive. I fail to see what's inflammatory about a plain statement of dislike for an ideology, in answer to a direct question. As for bigoted, I do not believe in Political Correctness (actually I think that PC is just as stupid as racism), and I do make value judgements on cultures and ideologies all the time. If you fear the implications of the answer, why you keep nagging me for it ?
 
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It feeds political separatism and Balkanization. "The inherent value of thousands of human cultures", whatever you mean by it, is not remotely worth mankind remaining divided into countless hundreds or thousands of bickering tribes. I have nothing against Abkhaz culture by itself, but if it has to be the rallying force behind Abkhazian separatism, far better that it be stomped out. The litmus test is when a culture becomes an excuse for yet another bunch of demagogue pricks to set up yet another useless little state. Unfortunately, it happens most of the time.

But what's wrong with countries and states, if people want them? In fact, if people want the, I'm all for them. You seem to think they cause war somehow, but have you ever heard of the democratic peace?

I deem that Christianity and Islam have been much more of a negative force in history than positive. I fail to see what's inflammatory about a plain statement of dislike for an ideology, in answer to a direct question. As for bigoted, I do not believe in Political Correctness (actually I think that PC is just as stupid as racism), and I do make value judgements on cultures and ideologies all the time. If you fear the implications of the answer, why you keep nagging me for it ?

I don't fear any implications, I'm just pointing out that you have more-or-less said "I dislike many millions who I haven't met." What have Christianity and Islam done that's so bad?
 

Eurofed

Banned
But what's wrong with countries and states, if people want them?

Besides the much incresed likelihood of conflicts, there is a lot of global problems that could be managed much more efficiently if you had to get 3 or 5 governments into agreement rather than 200.

In fact, if people want the, I'm all for them.

If I want a nuke, can I have it ?

have you ever heard of the democratic peace?

A flawed theory riddled with inconsistencies, exceptions, and statistical flaws.

I'm just pointing out that you have more-or-less said "I dislike many millions who I haven't met."

Did you have to met every, or even most of, Communist in person, before deciding to dislike Communism ? In which meaningful way meeting in person has anything to do with forming a value judgement about an ideology ? I speak about an ideology, not an ethnicity (which does not really exist anyway). Apples and oranges.
 
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You're welcome to. Differently from other occasions where I'm annoyed for being quoted out of context, I'm most proud of my outspoken and vibrant continentalism and cosmopolitanism and my equally outspoken and intense loathing for nationalism and Westphalian sovreignty. :cool::D
I like how you phrased it. But we have some pretty irreconcilable political differences, and I don't want people to think we agree. I do enjoy our discussions, though.

Because no idea my language native German not is nor spoke German I do. :p :rolleyes: Why people all Germanophiles assume nationalist Germans be must ? :eek::confused:

Seriously, I apologize for my (occasional I hope) grammar and synthax slips of the tongue, but since I'm an awowed "world government" anti-nationalist, it is equally amusing and annoying to be mistaken for a nationalist. Again, with some exceptions* I'm mostly impartial in my enthusiasm for this or that state or empire to achieve the lasting imperial political unification of Europe, the Americas, or Asia.

I know you're not German or a German nationalist, but you tend to root for Germany in their conflicts with Poland, and that's what I was referring to here.

*the imperial agent must be able to build a house that can last without widespread gratuitous or long-term misery and cohercion for its subjects, beyond the inevitable strife of the unification phase itself.

This is true of all states, not just empires. Europe has proven that the sort of unity you like can in some circumstances be achieved by supra-state organizations--the EU has not conquered anyone.

I may only strongly root for some states/empires (e.g. the Manifest Destiny USA, Napoleonic France, or the Kaiserreich) because they looked like more promishing candidates to accomplishing such a task in history, with the right nudge. But Rome remains my most preferred candidate, for many reasons. While English is arguably better than Latin as a lingua franca, no TL can be perfect (at least Latin does not have the runaway plague that English spelling has become).

I'm from the U.S., but I'm absolutely ashamed of manifest destiny. It's virtually indistinguishable from, and heavily influenced, lebensraum. Arguably the biggest difference (aside from the peculiarities of the region) is that manifest destiny was largely fueled by the desire to expand and secure slavery indefinitely. I love my country for what it is today and the good it's done in the world, but frankly I'd rather live in an America that didn't make it all the way to the Pacific.

Rome was unstable and brutal throughout its history.

Napoleon resembles a 20th century dictator way too much for me to be comfortable with him ruling Europe.

The Kaiserreich could have done Europe a lot of good if it had liberalized and/or pursued a more pragmatic foreign policy. A big part of Europe's unifying peace is U.S./NATO military hegemony in the region, something that could have been achieved by Germany with only one world war and no holocaust. It also puts the iron curtain much farther east. Alas for the poor decisions made by Germany's leaders pre-WWI.

Languages have been a powerful seed for nationalism and separatism to emerge. I would prefer to uproot all possibility for that to occur. Having said that, hand me a TL where every citizen of whatever world-spanning empire eagerly embraces bilingualism (imperial lingua franca and local language) and does not even think of channeling quaint local languages into a rallying force for bullheaded political separatism, I eagerly sign it. Does this put your unrest with my political aspirations more at ease ?

I'm in favor of things that prevent cultures from being destroyed.

Actually nationalism is particularly noted for stamping out regional dialects and minority languages within national borders. So...does this make you like nationalism more or less?

Mostly, I dislike Islam a lot.

Islam is probably the best candidate for world unification yet. A good Islamowank will do more for your ideology than a good Rome-wank.

I think Westphalia is a pretty cool guy. Eh gets imposed undemocratcially on an unwilling population, has totally artificically borders and absolutely unfitting name, and doesnt afraid of anything [/4chanspeak]

makes prince powerful and pretty kleinstaaterei
 

Eurofed

Banned
I know you're not German or a German nationalist, but you tend to root for Germany in their conflicts with Poland, and that's what I was referring to here.

This is mostly caused by my rooting for plausible candidates for becoming healthy and sizable blobs, and only slightly enhanced by the obnoxious quality I perceive in Polish nationalism, which among other things, makes me have the least amount of sympathy for Poland (and Czechia) among all victims of Nazism (Jews and homosexuals get the greatest). Two feelings of mine get mixed here, my sentiments about blobs and the judgement that Germany got a rather unfair (and harmful to Europe and the world) deal out of the World Wars in general and in comparison to say Russia.

This is true of all states, not just empires. Europe has proven that the sort of unity you like can in some circumstances be achieved by supra-state organizations--the EU has not conquered anyone.

True, but sincerely, I very much prefer an EU-like integration to arise with rather more initial military cohercion and the tragedies of WWII, Nazism, and Communism, be avoided or contained in the long term.

Our EU is still an half-baked open question in my book: I'll define it a clear success when quasi-federal strong supranationalism with fiscal, foreign policy, and security integration is achieved, too. For now, I'm biting my nails for the outcome of the Treaty of Lisbon, which makes the pie only mildly better backed, hoping that no yet more loony populist demagogue clown or bloody electorate of tiny country in nationalist moral panic or willing to vent frustrations for their own national government on innocent EU gets in the way.

I'm from the U.S., but I'm absolutely ashamed of manifest destiny.

Genocide always sucks but sincerely I think that in the long term, if Native Americans had been assimilated instead of being killed or left alone in their Stone Age lifestyle, their lot and the overall outcome fro the world would have been better. I think pretty much the same for Mexicans or Caribbeans assimilated by a more successful Manifest Destiny, some years of cohercion buy centuries of prosperity and democracy. As for Canada, I deem that 1774-1815 events that left it politically separate from the other British colonies and fostered the development of separate national consciousness were an unfortunate wrong turn of history. The less nations history lets develop, the better.

It's virtually indistinguishable from, and heavily influenced, lebensraum.

Hitler got inspiration, true, but if a madman gets the wholly loony idea that his nation can do to 100 million modern Europeans in 10-20 years what European colonists did to 10 million Stone Age Native Americans in three centuries, it's very hard to cast blame on the colonists.

Arguably the biggest difference (aside from the peculiarities of the region) is that manifest destiny was largely fueled by the desire to expand and secure slavery indefinitely.

*shrug* In the end, results matter, not original motivation.

I love my country for what it is today and the good it's done in the world, but frankly I'd rather live in an America that didn't make it all the way to the Pacific.

As an European, I'll go and state that the world is a much better, prosperous and safer place, with an America that did it, and hence I very much prefer to live in such a TL. Again, it would have been better if the natives had been brought kicking and screaming into modernity instead of killed.

Rome was unstable and brutal throughout its history.

A PoD that makes Rome successful must perforce remove the instability. Rome was remarkably enlightened and tolerant and successful at productive integration without long-term cohercion and no more brutal than any other civilization of its age. If it had unified Europe and the Middle East for good, in due time it would have in all likelihood evolved to a more liberal socio-political framework, and Western Eurasia would have been spared a truckload of wars, and got much better and earlier economic and cultural development (sparing the Dark Ages in all evidence gives mankind some centuries of technological and cultural acceleration).

Napoleon resembles a 20th century dictator way too much for me to be comfortable with him ruling Europe.

No worse than the other rulers of Europe in his age. It is exceedingly unlikely that Napoleonic European Empire would have reamined authoritarian in the very long term.

The Kaiserreich could have done Europe a lot of good if it had liberalized and/or pursued a more pragmatic foreign policy. A big part of Europe's unifying peace is U.S./NATO military hegemony in the region, something that could have been achieved by Germany with only one world war and no holocaust. It also puts the iron curtain much farther east. Alas for the poor decisions made by Germany's leaders pre-WWI.

So very true.

I'm in favor of things that prevent cultures from being destroyed.

I want political fragmentation rooted out and America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and ultimately the world get as close as possible to unity. The means are irrelevant, as long as they don't give scumbags like Hitler, Himmler, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim, Lenin, or Stalin a free rein, and no more cohercion than a decade or two of military rule or so. As long as cultures are not an obstacle to that, let them be. IMO, however, globalization is showing that having a gazillion different cultures is largely overrated and mankind can thrive nicely with far less diversity.

Islam is probably the best candidate for world unification yet. A good Islamowank will do more for your ideology than a good Rome-wank.

Rome had better potential for tolerance than Islam even at its heyday and a Rome that remains united and strong and conquers Germania, Mesopotamia and Persia has practically everything Islam had in its golden age and much more besides. I find your statement untrue.
 
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So 1984 is pretty much your nightmare then?

Edit: What's your opinion of Turkey?
 
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Eurofed

Banned
So 1984 is pretty much your nightmare then?

Politically, indeed. Geopolitically, if the three superstates were empires that sometime ago evolved to liberal democracy, its map makes me cry envious tears of joy. Only make India the fourth junior superpower, and we are really up to something, as world government goes.

Edit: What's your opinion of Turkey?

The modern one ? A fine example of an established best-case scenario for an Islamic country. Ataturk left a positive imprint on the world. It gets my "why not ?" vote to join the EU the moment it lets Northern Cyprus go (and not a moment before) to reward its long-term sincere committment to Western values, even if geographically I think it is not Europe at all, but we may make a special exception. Apart from Northern Cyprus, I think the arguments raised to object to its membership are flimsly and a biased fig-leaf. There are still some tweaks to do here and there, but it's not in a worse shape than say Romania and culturally it's not less liberal than say Poland. Turkey really looks it has avoided the fundamentalist contagion, luckily. One wishes that Iran had followed its example, instead of slipping into a nightmarish aggressive totalitarian theocracy.
 
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You don't consider Istanbul to be in Europe? I actually consider the entire Mediterranean area part of "political Europe", and really, the peninsula is only considered its own continent because of politics.

I've also read that the only differences between Turkey and the Ottoman Empire is the area it covers and the lack of a king, all the other institutions are the same.
 
Besides the much incresed likelihood of conflicts, there is a lot of global problems that could be managed much more efficiently if you had to get 3 or 5 governments into agreement rather than 200.

Environmental problems, for instance. Another thing that would make those easier to adress? If we can ration access to light and heat like mid-80s Romania and send anyone who violates the regulations to a labour camp.

I'm all for action on that front, but not where it infringes on my most basic liberties including self-determination.

If I want a nuke, can I have it ?

This is circular reasoning. It's only an argument if, as you assert, states are as dangerous as nuclear bombs, which is quite frankly ridiculous. You can't destroy civilisation with a state, for all that Hitler did his best.

A flawed theory riddled with inconsistencies, exceptions, and statistical flaws.

Such as?

Did you have to met every, or even most of, Communist in person, before deciding to dislike Communism ?

Yes. As a matter of fact, I was one for a time.

...What?

In which meaningful way meeting in person has anything to do with forming a value judgement about an ideology ?

I'm not sure what you mean here, but I have friends who you might call marxist-sympathetic and I am 100% in favour of the rights of communists including free speech, free organisation and meeting, free elctoral participation. My commitment to these ideals is why I don't like communism.

I speak about an ideology, not an ethnicity (which does not really exist anyway). Apples and oranges.

But Communism can be objectively analysed by picking apart the works of Marxs, Lenin et al. One can of course flip through the Koran and Hadith, but call me back when you find a political docrtine requiring people be stripped of basic rights in an Islamic holy text, or indeed a Christian one. Speaking of which, if you're against Ottomans because you're against Islam, why no objection to Napoleon's strongly Catholic empire?

Napoleon resembles a 20th century dictator way too much for me to be comfortable with him ruling Europe.

He wasn't exactly a liberal, but then enither was Metternich. He also made some talk about being too old for personal government during the Hundred Days. And his states brought real revolutionary measures like the Code and the emancipation of Jews. I can't see any ways in which Napoleon's Europe would be worse than Metternich's. It would very likley be better.
 

Susano

Banned
You don't consider Istanbul to be in Europe? I actually consider the entire Mediterranean area part of "political Europe", and really, the peninsula is only considered its own continent because of politics.
As the name says, Asia Minor has always been considered part of Asia. That the Mediterrean used to be a coherent and connected cultural space until the Muslim conquests of North Africa is irrelevant to that - it was a coherent cultural space spanning three continents, and was seen as such already in ancient geography.

And IBC, personally as Ive said in the Napoleon in Russia thread, I consider Napoleons fall fortunate for Europe. For one thing it ended 20 years of nearly unbroken war, and Napoleon bleeding the French, German and Italian populations white of manpower. And then theres the aspect of francofication politics... at least Metternichs system allowed Europe to develop towards freedoms and democracy in a saner, less violent way.
 
And IBC, personally as Ive said in the Napoleon in Russia thread, I consider Napoleons fall fortunate for Europe. For one thing it ended 20 years of nearly unbroken war, and Napoleon bleeding the French, German and Italian populations white of manpower.

That's true, but then his winning is something of a hypothetical. If Napoleon wins, that also ends the war! And if we assume that he has a more tactful policy towards Spain and then gets lucky a lot, it could be shorter and less bloody.

And then theres the aspect of francofication politics... at least Metternichs system allowed Europe to develop towards freedoms and democracy in a saner, less violent way.

Sides of coins. Metternich's state was not a place for Czech language and culture to flourish. Now, Napoleon has no reason to change this whatever, but I'm just, to use an unbearably hackneyed appeal to some nebulous common-man sentiment, sayin'.
 
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