PC/AHC/WI: Dutch "manifest destiny"

Thomas1195

Banned
pompejus said:
The big problem is not area. The problem is the inherrent corrpution of the Dutch republican system, which lead to the stagnation of the Dutch Republic. The entire system must change before the Dutch Republic can a great power again.
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I think there were windows of opportunity during the last phase of the Eighty Years' War, or the years around 1710. Have the Dutch reconquering Antwerp during the Eighty Years' War; or the Peace of Utrecht going differently (the first Barrier treaty in 1709 - which gives the Dutch literally the whole Flanders) and allowing Hensius sufficient political capital to enact his intended reforms of converting the Dutch Republic into a more centralized, federal one.

A bigger Dutch is still one of my cards to change the Dutch system, because it would balance the power away from Holland, especially if the new lands are rich.
 

Parma

Very interesting topic. As menyioned in earlier post, the Dutch Republic need to have some sort of severe crises, earlier in it excisitence that is before 1672. Obviously this did not happen whihc resulted in the following:
Johan de Witt thoroughly edited the manuscript for the book the "Interest van Holland "by the Leiden lawyer Pieter de la Court. The book is considered one of the most important 'recipe books' for economic and political success in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and has had a significant impact. De la Court identified free trade and the republican form of government as the leading factors of economic and political success. War and geographic expansion were to be prevented and allowed only if there was no other option.

This book, one of the most important books of economy before Adma Smiths "the Wealth of Nations" had a significant impact on the politics of the Dutch Republic, and is one of the majors reasons why the army was neglected or later during the Nine years war and the War of the Spanish succession the Republic chose for Barriuer cities in the Southern Netherlands instead of real annexations. Even the ocupation of this barier cities mean the city and the large area around it was defacto annexed.
 

HJ Tulp

Didn't Interest van Holland also contain passages advocating the sale of the eastern provinces to the Emperor and limiting the Republic to Holland, Zeeland and Utrecht, happily trading behind the safety of the Waterline?
 

Parma

Most likely chance to have a sort of expansionist Republic is to have competetive Province or city, preferably both out side of the Province of Holland, which can counter the power of Amsterdam and Holland. Cities as Antwerp and or Bruge as part of the Republic would result in more presure to secure their hinterlands.
 

pompejus

Parma said:
Most likely chance to have a sort of expansionist Republic is to have competetive Province or city, preferably both out side of the Province of Holland, which can counter the power of Amsterdam and Holland. Cities as Antwerp and or Bruge as part of the Republic would result in more presure to secure their hinterlands.
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If you want them to be equal to Holland, you need them to be protestant (or at least have a significant protestant minority). So a late reconquest of them is out of the question. You probably need a very early 80 year war POD to accomplish it.
 

Jürgen

Thomas1195 said:
To be honest, my agenda is to make a Dutch Republic capable of becoming a Great Power in 1900 - basically the weakest one. Note that Italy, a much more backward nation, was a great power in 1900.
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I think that Netherlands would be better off with successful settler colonies abroad, which was integrated into the political system. Even if they lose them to secession Dutch speaking states abroad would use Netherlands as their access to European markets. If they don’t lose them, Netherlands can use these states as way to project power abroad. Imagine if the Dutch Cape had 300.000 Dutch people in 1800, it would both be a more likely exile for the Dutch monarch and serve as a way for the Dutch to keep control over all of their oversea empire, instead of seeing the British cut a lot of valuable pierces off. A stronger Dutch presence abroad under the Napoleonic Wars could even expand at the expense of the Spanish.
 

Parma

Several options of existiential crises of the Dutch Republic:
- Spinoza, some where in1620 to1625, crosses the rivers into Utrecht, besiege the city, and plunders the surroundings even close to Amsterdam.
- Bernhard von Galen prince-bishop of Münster, invade the Dutch Republic, manage to occupy some cities along the river Ijssel, crosses this river and plunder the country nearly up to the city of Utrecht. He does this in 1653 or1654, during the first Anglo-Dutch war when the coast of Holland and Zeeland is blocked by the Royal Navy. The whole exercise is more a plunder campaign in order to stop Dutch interference in Munster and to fill his coffers.
 

pompejus

Parma said:
- Spinoza, some where in1620 to1625, crosses the rivers into Utrecht, besiege the city, and plunders the surroundings even close to Amsterdam.
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Spinoza? Don't you mean SpinoLa?
I kind of doubt the Philosopher would start plundering Amsterdam
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Parma said:
He does this in 1653 or1654, during the first Anglo-Dutch war when the coast of Holland and Zeeland is blocked by the Royal Navy. The whole exercise is more a plunder campaign in order to stop Dutch interference in Munster and to fill his coffers.
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Or, a bigger English victory, and the English forces the Dutch to open the Schelt for a number of years. The Regenten would have to invade Antwerp.



Parma said:
Bernhard von Galen prince-bishop of Münster, invade the Dutch Republic, manage to occupy some cities along the river Ijssel, crosses this river and plunder the country nearly up to the city of Utrecht. He does this in 1653 or1654, during the first Anglo-Dutch war when the coast of Holland and Zeeland is blocked by the Royal Navy. The whole exercise is more a plunder campaign in order to stop Dutch interference in Munster and to fill his coffers
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I wonder what would happen if a more agressive and army-focus Dutch Republic decides to wage an expansionist war of conquest against Munster.
 
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