Paul Wellstone Lives?

[usertron2020]

I don't think Wellstone could beat Hillary. Hillary will get her OTL WWC and Hispanic voters, but with a high level of black support as well. For one thing there would be no "change" factor, since both have been in public life for over two decades. The Republicans are not going to win in 2008 unless a) Bush handles Katrina a lot better b) mitigate the financial meltdown somewhat c) no Iraq war. In which states is Wellstone going to get traction? Not the burbs, certainly not the industrial states or the South. Remember, in 2008 both Obama and Clinton were not of the Democratic left: Clinton formally affiliated with the DLC, Obama not too far off. All three Democrats in the WH since '68 have been DLC ideologically (Carter, Clinton, Obama). No liberal Democrat has been POTUS since LBJ.

RogueBeaver

Perfect insight as always. Except one thing. Improving a and b? No c? You're talking about "What if Jeb Bush is elected POTUS in 2000?" Any suggestion of W doing other than what he did would mean he wasn't W, Rove wasn't Rove, and Cheney wasn't Cheney

 

[V-J]

Ah, another Paul Wellstone thread. Another thread in which the fact that he was too ill to even run in 2000 is disregarded.

People think there is a chance that Wellstone would have ran in 2008? Aged 64? With MS? Who do you think he was, Superman? No, Wellstone would surely have been sticking to re-election or retiring in 2008, not going off on some Don Quixote presidential run.

I think people are looking too much through the paradigm of Wellstone's death. Without it, he's just another largely unremarkable liberal Senator of the Russ Feingold mould. Actually, sub-Russ Feingold, because he's older and probably has narrower appeal than Feingold.

I think it's questionable in any case, btw, whether Wellstone would have won his re-election campaign - Mondale couldn't on an (albeit diluted) sympathy vote. Anyone got any polls on what the race was like before Wellstone's death? I don't know how close it was before his death, but I know it was close.

 

[hopper2cool]

I don't think Wellstone have a huge impact if he lived. Major differences of course but Wellstone would not have gone very far at all in 04 or 08.
However one major difference would be that there would not be a Wellstone funeral (obviously).
That did not go well for the DNC. Sorry, but it was way too political. Wellstone was a good man and he had died. Using him to get votes probably hurt the DNC in the 02 elections. Maybe if that hadn't happened then maybe in 04 Kerry wouldn't have been picked to run.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I don't think Wellstone have a huge impact if he lived. Major differences of course but Wellstone would not have gone very far at all in 04 or 08.
However one major difference would be that there would not be a Wellstone funeral (obviously).
That did not go well for the DNC. Sorry, but it was way too political. Wellstone was a good man and he had died. Using him to get votes probably hurt the DNC in the 02 elections. Maybe if that hadn't happened then maybe in 04 Kerry wouldn't have been picked to run.

That is a very clever piece of echoing that I'm always urging people to get the hang of.

If not Kerry then who? Edwards ? That could be fun if he becomes president and then things come out

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[RogueBeaver]

None of the Democratic 2004 aspirants have any substance except Kerry, who's too liberal, flip-flops like he's never left the beach, and is too weak with a spandex problem. Edwards is an empty suit, Gephardt is well past his expiry date by over a decade, Dean is a caricature of a rabid leftist as a candidate (not as governor). The only potential winners are Kerry or Hillary.

 

[Grey Wolf]

None of the Democratic 2004 aspirants have any substance except Kerry, who's too liberal, flip-flops like he's never left the beach, and is too weak with a spandex problem. Edwards is an empty suit, Gephardt is well past his expiry date by over a decade, Dean is a caricature of a rabid leftist as a candidate (not as governor). The only potential winners are Kerry or Hillary.

Kerry never seemed to have any substance from where I was watching

Besides, did BUSH have any substance? Edwards IIRC was Kerry's main rival as the primaries went on and if he won he wouldn't have been the first nobody to have gained the nomination

Would he have been able to fight Bush? Hard to say, with that dumb "commander-in-chief" meme playing out in the electorate

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[RogueBeaver]

Edwards would have been shredded by Bush. All his Senate Democratic colleagues thought he was a lightweight, he was (and is) obsessed with himself and inhaling his own exhaust. In 2004 he was relatively centrist as opposed to the Dean 2.0 neo-populism of 2008. The only presidents denied a second term were those who were judged to have failed in their first term- Truman was dragged down by Korea and an endless array of petty scandals, LBJ by Vietnam, the Great Society and his archrival, Carter by FUBARing on foreign policy, Bush I by neglecting the economy. In 2004 the economy was humming, Iraq was not seen as a liability and Katrina had not yet occurred.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Edwards would have been shredded by Bush. All his Senate Democratic colleagues thought he was a lightweight, he was (and is) obsessed with himself and inhaling his own exhaust. In 2004 he was relatively centrist as opposed to the Dean 2.0 neo-populism of 2008. The only presidents denied a second term were those who were judged to have failed in their first term- Truman was dragged down by Korea and an endless array of petty scandals, LBJ by Vietnam, the Great Society and his archrival, Carter by FUBARing on foreign policy, Bush I by neglecting the economy. In 2004 the economy was humming, Iraq was not seen as a liability and Katrina had not yet occurred.

Hmmmm but I thought Edwards was seen by the media as being the nice new fresh dude?

Retrospective is not relevant because that would come out in his term, when everyone would go 'Oh fuck, he's an ass!'

Most the world thought Bush was a moronic dick, and a lot of America re-elected him because they were in a "War" and you don't "change commander-in-chiefs" in a war....apparently, not sure who made THAT rule up!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[usertron2020]

Rove: Brit, I think maybe we should hold off deciding to call it...

Hmmmm but I thought Edwards was seen by the media as being the nice new fresh dude?

Retrospective is not relevant because that would come out in his term, when everyone would go 'Oh fuck, he's an ass!'

Most the world thought Bush was a moronic dick, and a lot of America re-elected him because they were in a "War" and you don't "change commander-in-chiefs" in a war....apparently, not sure who made THAT rule up!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

1944. FDR. Elected to serve 87 days of a 4th term.
In defense of my moronic countrymen, I'll say this: in 2000, using the strictest standards, Gore wins Florida, and the Election, by 3 votes. But Gore didn't have his first cousin at Fox News ready to call the election in HIS favor, and Bush did. And so went the media lemmings. In 2004, Bush had all the powers of the incumbency, and it all came down to 30,000 votes in southwest Ohio. Which is why on election night 2008 the clowns at Fox, led by their puppetmaster Karl Rove, were talking up Ohio as going for McCain until OTHER news outlets started declaring Ohio for Obama. Seems they had no trouble taking their time with declaring winners when the numbers were against them.

 

[RogueBeaver]

Relevance to the OP? I think we've pretty well established that Wellstone would not run and would get curbstomped if he did.

 

[usertron2020]

Relevance to the OP? I think we've pretty well established that Wellstone would not run and would get curbstomped if he did.

Merely responding to Grey Wolf's post.