Maryland Secedes

[RamscoopRaider]

I doubt moving the capital back to DC will cause the chances of intervention to decline much. You already lost the capital, moving back won't change perceptions much. If I were European I would think it idiotic. DC is worthless outside of being the seat of government. It is of absolutely no other importance. Without the capital it is about as important as Green Bay, WI which if it weren't for the Packers no one would ever hear about. I admit that even though I am from the state. In any case the chances of intervention are near zero. The CSA has nothing that GB wants enough to be worth the risk to the government.

Yes but not moving back will say "we got our asses kicked and can't even retake our old capital with any degree of security", while moving back would say "The CSA got lucky once, they will not again". While there was near as no chance of European intervention IRL, Lincoln and the government were worried about it and wanted to look strong.

Also it provides a symbol to the country that we are winning and can win this war, whereas not returning would say we are losing and would give the Copperheads more ammo. Regular Democrats too, politics are important and people will want the capital back it is a symbol

We had already lost the south and losing DC in this context but retaking it and moving back will not have changed perceptions much by 63 or 64, enough had happened before then

While logically the reasons you have said for not moving the government back logic is not everything, symbols and perceptions easily can overshadow logic and have done so in many cases in this war

 

[Deleted member 36284]

While logically the reasons you have said for not moving the government back logic is not everything, symbols and perceptions easily can overshadow logic and have done so in many cases in this war

I agree, after taking back the capital it would be a good show of strength to bring back the Capital. It wouldn't be a show of progress just to Europe though, more importantly it would show the public the war was in their favor.

But, just to make the issue more complicated, what if D.C. was sacked and burned to the ground by Confederates. When Union troops retake it what will Lincoln's reaction be? Will he still move the capital there?

 

[Tank Cdr]

IN OTL Maryland was probably the most pro-confederate border state. If Lincoln fails to act decisively as he did in arresting a lot of the pro-confederate power brokers, then Maryland may fully secede. If that happens you could have a full blown and bloody civil war within the state itself. Now you are looking at the capital of the United States surrounded by hostile territory. At that point there may be no choice but to move the capital.

 

[Anaxagoras]

IN OTL Maryland was probably the most pro-confederate border state.

How do you figure that? I've always considered Missouri the border state with the most pro-Confederate sentiment, followed by Kentucky, and only then followed by Maryland. Certainly larger numbers of Missourians and Kentuckians served the Confederate Army than Marylanders, but that could just be because they had larger populations.

 

[jkay]

I think it's almost ASB unlikely Bull Run I could resulted in the capital falling. Offense was hard and slow in ACW. And, the Union officers were hardly idiots about defense. And most movements, especially CSA, were on SLOWISH FOOT, giving time for the capital and Union troops to calm down and deal appropriately. And, following up victory with immediate action is psychologically hard to do, especially for newbs and those running the CSA.

It's certainly possible MD coulda gone Grey. It was a closish vote, ISTR. But I agree it would've been quickly counterinvaded. And rebels hiding would've hidden in the planter plains instead, because that's where their support base was.

 

[Deleted member 36284]

I think it's almost ASB unlikely Bull Run I could resulted in the capital falling. Offense was hard and slow in ACW. And, the Union officers were hardly idiots about defense. And most movements, especially CSA, were on SLOWISH FOOT, giving time for the capital and Union troops to calm down and deal appropriately. And, following up victory with immediate action is psychologically hard to do, especially for newbs and those running the CSA.

It's certainly possible MD coulda gone Grey. It was a closish vote, ISTR. But I agree it would've been quickly counterinvaded. And rebels hiding would've hidden in the planter plains instead, because that's where their support base was.

Your probably right but perhaps if the Union defenders decide to try to break out of the pocket their being forced into to, they have succeed where many of their troops are still caught on the inside and retreat to D.C. There the CSA turns it into a sort of Dunkirk. I knows it's highly unlikely, but is it possible?

Now it's obvious even if they capture D.C. it will be back in Union hands within a couple of months. So, what if they return to a D.C. burned to the ground? What will they do? Where will the government set up shop? And most importantly; What is the Union's new strategy?

 

[Father Maryland]

But if the Confederates over run D.C after Bull Run, they will have a clear corridor into Maryland.

And, for the record, I would think the capital would be moved to Philadelphia.

Even at the time of Bull Run it just wasn't possible for the Secesh to take DC. There were fresh American troops in the city and the Secesh forces were too disorganized and weary after the battle.

Damn. I thought this was about a TL where the Catholic Colony of Maryland succeeds.

Better yet find a way to have Maryland in Newfoundland succeed.

Or better yet the Republic of Maryland in Liberia succeed.

 

[anon_user]

My response from an earlier Maryland-secession thread, which at least managed to spell secession right.
***
Another way of interpreting the thread title might be to try to maintain a Catholic majority in Maryland, given that it was initially supposed to be a refuge for English Catholics.

 

[Deleted member 36284]

Even at the time of Bull Run it just wasn't possible for the Secesh to take DC. There were fresh American troops in the city and the Secesh forces were too disorganized and weary after the battle.

Yes, but is it possible to either have a failed attempt to break out or have some weird communication error which ends up splitting the Union army and turning D.C. into a Dunkirk for the Union?

 

[Tank Cdr]

How do you figure that? I've always considered Missouri the border state with the most pro-Confederate sentiment, followed by Kentucky, and only then followed by Maryland. Certainly larger numbers of Missourians and Kentuckians served the Confederate Army than Marylanders, but that could just be because they had larger populations.

The Missouri secession vote was not even close, even though it did have a large pro-confederate population. In Kentucky only the governor was pro-confederate in that state government, the population leaned pro-union. In Maryland only drastic, and legally questionable action saved that state from officially going to the CSA. As in that other border states the population was split, but the Maryland government was the most pro-confederate border state government. I should have been clear that I was talking government not the general population.

 

[Cryptic]

So, here's a simple question. What would be a good PoD from which Maryland would secede from the Union sometime in 1861? Then tell me your opinion of what would happen.

but the Maryland government was the most pro-confederate border state government. I should have been clear that I was talking government not the general population.

Given the union military presence, the best CSA scenario might be that the eastern shore counties (Maryland area with the highest ratio of potential confederates) do a "West Virginia" and create a miniature confederate version of the break away state. Though the union military presence would prevent Baltimore from joining the confederate government, Washington would then have to decide whether to restore the eastern shore counties to Maryland by force, or simply let the confederate forces there and confederate sympathizers in Delaware "whither on the vine".

 

[Tank Cdr]

Given the union military presence, the best CSA scenario might be that the eastern shore counties (Maryland area with the highest ratio of potential confederates) do a "West Virginia" and create a miniature confederate version of the break away state. Though the union military presence would prevent Baltimore from joining the confederate government, Washington would then have to decide whether to restore the eastern shore counties to Maryland by force, or simply let the confederate forces there and confederate sympathizers in Delaware "whither on the vine".

This CSA state, we can call it East Maryland, is going to have to be invaded and cleared by US troops for two reasons. First, the CSA will make an effort to support this area and instead of fighting in Virginia the first year of the war could be fought in Maryland. Second, East Maryland will be a staging ground for attacks and raids on the US rail lines running through Baltimore and DC. If you look on a map, East Maryland would be a dagger sticking between Baltimore, DC and the rest of the US. Conquering the state of East Maryland will probably be Lincoln's first priority. This could make for an interesting timeline for anyone willing to take it on. Could the CSA have a better chance with at least part of Maryland officially a Confederate state? It does take pressure off Virginia.

 

[Cryptic]

This CSA state, we can call it East Maryland, is going to have to be invaded and cleared by US troops for two reasons. First, the CSA will make an effort to support this area and instead of fighting in Virginia the first year of the war could be fought in Maryland. Second, East Maryland will be a staging ground for attacks and raids on the US rail lines running through Baltimore and DC.

An establishment of a Confederate east Maryland will embolden Baltimore's numerous confederate supporters and lead to the formation of sniping and raiding groups. Before invading East Maryland, the union will have to pacify Baltimore immediatly. The pacification of Baltimore would be a very fertile ground for a large scale atrocities:


Maybe....

Colonel Hatter stared at the five executed civilians in a daze. The patriotic call to arms, glory and righteousness was not supposed to lead to this. The last weeks had been a walk into a bees nest of ambushers and snipers as they approached Baltimore. "L.t. Smithfield's orders sir", the NCO shrugged... "Smithfied sort of took over Company 'D' after the Captain and color seargenat were killed by the snipers in the morning". Colonel Hatter groaned, Smithfield had relatives fighting in Kansas and put alot of Old Testament religion into his orders.

In the following weeks, Baltimore descended into chaos. With the most capable union regiments in Virigiana, the pacification of Baltimore fell to second and third stringers. Reprisal killings multipied, and afters some captured Federals were gruesomely lynched, multiplied again. A handful of abolitionist officers independently liberated slaves. The slaves were then abused by other federal units for "starting the war". The least capable units deteriorated into uniformed and in some cases, partially uniformed mobs as local pro union men with grudges pointed out rebel homes for looting and burning.

Eventually, with leadership shake ups and the arrival of Federal regulars, Baltimore is pacified and union regiments are brought under control. But this is not before newspapers in France and Britain carry exaggerated stories of pillage.

 

[Snake Featherston]

The America Will Break movement gives the Confederacy AK-47s, mortars, and multiple-rocket launchers in 1861.

 

[Deleted member 36284]

An establishment of a Confederate east Maryland will embolden Baltimore's numerous confederate supporters and lead to the formation of sniping and raiding groups. Before invading East Maryland, the union will have to pacify Baltimore immediatly. The pacification of Baltimore would be a very fertile ground for a large scale atrocities:


Maybe....

Colonel Hatter stared at the five executed civilians in a daze. The patriotic call to arms, glory and righteousness was not supposed to lead to this. The last weeks had been a walk into a bees nest of ambushers and snipers as they approached Baltimore. "L.t. Smithfield's orders sir", the NCO shrugged... "Smithfied sort of took over Company 'D' after the Captain and color seargenat were killed by the snipers in the morning". Colonel Hatter groaned, Smithfield had relatives fighting in Kansas and put alot of Old Testament religion into his orders.

In the following weeks, Baltimore descended into chaos. With the most capable union regiments in Virigiana, the pacification of Baltimore fell to second and third stringers. Reprisal killings multipied, and afters some captured Federals were gruesomely lynched, multiplied again. A handful of abolitionist officers independently liberated slaves. The slaves were then abused by other federal units for "starting the war". The least capable units deteriorated into uniformed and in some cases, partially uniformed mobs as local pro union men with grudges pointed out rebel homes for looting and burning.

Eventually, with leadership shake ups and the arrival of Federal regulars, Baltimore is pacified and union regiments are brought under control. But this is not before newspapers in France and Britain carry exaggerated stories of pillage.

Quite true, and interesting idea. Perhaps even more importantly the Confederates will have much more time to prepare. It looks like much of the fighting will be in Maryland as Union troops are delayed from invading Virginia by having to invade parts of Maryland, defend Washington, and "pacify" Baltimore. This will make a very interesting timeline! Now, the question remains...

What are the Confederates doing this whole time?

 

[Indigo]

Well, even in OTL there were severe riots in baltimore, which didn't hamper the Union too much. The confederates probably won't do much, because: jefferson Davis and other CSA leaders primarily thought of defensive strategy, and in 1861 the CSA is busy sending Lee and others to fail in west Virginia. The main consequence of maryland seceding would probably be to strenghten the radical republicans, who could argue that the only remaining slave states in the union are Missouri, out in the west, kentucky, which is supposedly neutral, and Delaware, which will never secede.

 

[Professord1953]

A Conferderate Maryland would have give the confederates the naval college at annapolis and the port of Baltamore to make a naval out of with thier stores plus the indesties bases out of Baltimore at the time. also the key life line to DC is the Baltimore and Ohio railroad. another plus for the Conferdates a major railine to help the 3rd rate rails of the south.
that is why in our time west virginia has that hand in northern virginia is so the the B and O was soildly in union hands. plus as was point out is it help out the confederates on an international stage as Baltiomore is a major port for commerace

 

[Cryptic]

Quite true, and interesting idea. Perhaps even more importantly the Confederates will have much more time to prepare. It looks like much of the fighting will be in Maryland as Union troops are delayed from invading Virginia by having to invade parts of Maryland, defend Washington, and "pacify" Baltimore. This will make a very interesting timeline! Now, the question remains...

What are the Confederates doing this whole time?

Thanks for the compliment.

Maybe...

The admiral studied stared at is map. On land, the union military situation looked bleak. The defeat at Bull Run was followed by the clumsy and over kill pacification of Baltimore. Now, a huge but slow and equally clumsy conglomeration of union regulars and hastily trained state militia regiments was preparing to advance into Confederate East Maryland.

The sea, however, held promise. A sea campaign offered speed and raiper attacks on long the Delmarva penninsula. Instead of infantry slogging through mud and snipers, there would be an antispetic series of "port hops" by only the most capable Federal army units. Ideally, Confederate units on the Penninsula get suprised and overwhelmed and the Union navy gives the public a desperatly needed morale boost....

 

[OAM47]

How do you figure that? I've always considered Missouri the border state with the most pro-Confederate sentiment, followed by Kentucky, and only then followed by Maryland. Certainly larger numbers of Missourians and Kentuckians served the Confederate Army than Marylanders, but that could just be because they had larger populations.

I don't know much about Maryland, but Missouri mostly wanted to just stay out of the fight, but several figures, chief among them Fremont, provoked the Confederate supports, so to speak.

Also, on moving the capital: I think Chicago is too small and remote from the rest of the country at this time to really be a good choice. The city did not take off until after the fire, really.

 

[Blackfox5]

Think about the scenario. Congress was in session at the time, so all but a handful of congressman have been captured by the Confederate army, as have the President and his cabinet and the Supreme Court. The US government has just been decapitated. Under that circumstance, I highly doubt whatever vestiges of authority (the military, I suppose) remain would be thinking about defensibility.

The scenario you are describing and the actual scenario are not the same. Maryland voting for secession would probably happen after Fort Sumter. At that time, there is no Confederate Army at all. There are state militias and a government based in Alabama that is trying to put together an army. It would likely be months before any Confederate Army could move into Maryland.

There is the Maryland militia of course, but how well it is used depends on the actual support of secession by Marylanders. Many Marylanders might choose to oppose secession instead.

In Washington, DC, you have the Federal Army under direct control of the government. It may not be very large in April/May 1861, but it is certainly organized and large. Combined with pro-Union Marylanders and pro-Union state militias elsewhere, Lincoln can probably quickly assert complete control over Maryland.

The conspirators would be arrested for treason. Maryland would likely be ruled by martial law until a new government can be elected that is pro-Union.

There would likely be lots of legal ramifications as the actions of the captured secessionists and Lincoln administration is worked out in the courts. Militarily, not a whole lot of changes. It would probably prompt some panic and inflame people on all sides.

One possibility is that the need to quickly move to quash the Maryland rebellion might lead to an early invasion of Virginia if the combined Federal army and Union state militias quickly take control. If that is seen as too risky, then the rest of the timeline develops like ours.