Longbows in the Penisular campaign

No, this myth has been shattered. The partistas did not force the French to disperse, or indeed had any major impact on French operations for the mostpart (although they did a lot of damage to the Spanish citizenry). The French dispersed because Spain was an agriculturally poor country and they needed to feed themselves.

See Esdaile:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peninsular-War-New-History/dp/0140273700 etc.

I suppose it depends on who you read...

https://www.laislalibros.com/libros/COMO-LOBOS-HAMBRIENTOS/LAC62000071/978-84-96107-90-8

Just check the campaign of Soult in Galicia and Northern Portugal. I suppose you are right and he left 80% of his army garrisoning Galicia just to keep them away from the luso-british that he was going to face with an small fraction of his army. Do you have any idea about the percentages of loses of the french army, I mean about who caused them?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The longbow had a practical range and rate of fire barely higher than the modern prussian drill (five shots a minute, drill at 150 yards; some of my sources give 200 yards but that might be a misinterpretation of the length of the prussian pace or a problem with unit conversion between customary systems). They also have the disadvantage of being only an indirect fire weapon, which means that the french have much better for that: artillery, which can and will destroy any longbow formation that is tight enough to be any use. The longbow was not killed by the musket, that was the crossbow: the cannon killed the longbow (and the pistol killed the lance, although for some obscure reason the poles still used these damn things all the way to the napoleonic wars - to be fair to the poles and cossacks, though, their lancers were only 1/3 equipped with lances and quite often no one actually used the lances outside the parade ground in their cavalry units).

To add to this, there's the training issue, there's the making the longbows issue, something that hasn't been built on that scale for three centuries in Britain and which uses a wood which had to be imported from Italy by the 1500s: If I might remind, Italy was, at the time, a bunch of french satellite states.

To add insult to injury, the same weather conditions which cause slight issues to muskets will destroy bows for any archer stupid enough to try to shoot.

The longbow has a romantic aura, but it's more of a myth: the artillery equipped Valois troops showed what happens to a force of archers facing a force supported by cannons, even early ones. A force of longbowmen facing the great batteries would be slaughtered.

And for ww1: you have to be exposed to shoot. I know generals in many armies were not particularly brilliant, but even the british, who were certainly not pioneers when it came to infiltration tactics (unlike Germany and even France), would realize how daft an idea this is.
 
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archaeogeek

Banned
Welcome aboard Mitchell. Also, reviving long "dead" threads is generally discouraged around here.

Ah yeah, should have checked the dates, although we didn't have our longbow-wank of the month - but that was awfully fast for a thread which would have started today :p
 
The fear of long-dead threads...

...Don't long-dead threads eventually come back into fashion?:D

1940s styles re-issued as modern fashion comes to mind:rolleyes:.

I re-read this thread and feel my remark about foot-bows remains relevant. For foot-bows vs. uruk-hai, try my No Saga But Reality - which I mean to re-start in January...

Kett's Insurgents used archery in 1549 and defeated hackbuteers (musqueteers) sent against them.

Montrose's Scots levies used archery as late as the 1640s.

With a 60-pound draw-weight bow I did fairly well at a re-enactment camp - they thought I'd done it before (well, I did, years before):eek:.

But I think crossbows might have their place - John Wayne's Green Berets in Vietnam, please copy...
 

archaeogeek

Banned
...Don't long-dead threads eventually come back into fashion?:D

1940s styles re-issued as modern fashion comes to mind:rolleyes:.

I re-read this thread and feel my remark about foot-bows remains relevant. For foot-bows vs. uruk-hai, try my No Saga But Reality - which I mean to re-start in January...

Kett's Insurgents used archery in 1549 and defeated hackbuteers (musqueteers) sent against them.

Montrose's Scots levies used archery as late as the 1640s.

With a 60-pound draw-weight bow I did fairly well at a re-enactment camp - they thought I'd done it before (well, I did, years before):eek:.

But I think crossbows might have their place - John Wayne's Green Berets in Vietnam, please copy...

So you have one victory going against the grain (also in 1549, England had a hard time making gunpowder that was worth anything: at Calais, they couldn't shoot at french troops during the siege because the powder was weak - anything England does in the early gunpowder age is because it was an outlier in the adoption of it :p ). It took the increase of herd animals in the country during the 16th for saltpeter supplies not to be constantly dwindling by the time of the civil war.
 
Longbowmen were rubbish at defending themselves, dependent upon others.

I do hope your not talking about Henry's Longbowmen of 1415. :p

The wonderfully splendid thing about them was when the French did finally close they picked up their hand weapons and faught like the Men at Arms (Which made up the minority) in the army.

Of course, if your talking about calvary and without being allowed time to stick in some wooden spikes, your quite right. :eek:

Couldn't Wellington of just put his longbowmen behind lines of his musketeers?
 
..and the pistol killed the lance, although for some obscure reason the poles still used these damn things all the way to the napoleonic wars - to be fair to the poles and cossacks, though, their lancers were only 1/3 equipped with lances and quite often no one actually used the lances outside the parade ground in their cavalry units.

I think it has to do with how generally awful the average Napoleonic-era pistol was and how lightly-armoured the lancers' opponents. Lances were used fairly often - against other horsemen. They certainly couldn't have enough concentration of lances to break infantry, and they HATED armoured cavalry - the arm-thrust with the lance couldn't beat the cuirass.

I don't know about Bashkirs and so on, but the French were often disdainful about things that later kicked their ass, and the Kalmycks were excellent light cavalry that had no particular problem with French or Prussian opponents. That said, even these people for whome horseback archery was a way of life gave up on the bow as a weapon. It's just not worth the time investment.
 
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archaeogeek

Banned
I do hope your not talking about Henry's Longbowmen of 1415. :p

The wonderfully splendid thing about them was when the French did finally close they picked up their hand weapons and faught like the Men at Arms (Which made up the minority) in the army.

Of course, if your talking about calvary and without being allowed time to stick in some wooden spikes, your quite right. :eek:

Couldn't Wellington of just put his longbowmen behind lines of his musketeers?

He couldn't because nobody made longbows like those anymore, because the yew needed to supply it only grew in sufficient amounts in french imperial vassals, because he'd have no trained longbowmen, and because what you get when you have longbowmen who aren't trained from birth is what happened with the francs-archers french magnates tried to raise to emulate the Plantagenets: you get archers but not the kind of archers England had. So basically you'd get a costly, archaic replacement for artillery that will be less efficient and more vulnerable than proper modern artillery.
 
I do hope your not talking about Henry's Longbowmen of 1415. :p

The wonderfully splendid thing about them was when the French did finally close they picked up their hand weapons and faught like the Men at Arms (Which made up the minority) in the army.

Of course, if your talking about calvary and without being allowed time to stick in some wooden spikes, your quite right. :eek:

Couldn't Wellington of just put his longbowmen behind lines of his musketeers?

Were the longbowmen trained in close combat? I'm guessing they were otherwise I agree with Fell that they had problems at close range.

Of course no one ever made it to close range...
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Were the longbowmen trained in close combat? I'm guessing they were otherwise I agree with Fell that they had problems at close range.

Of course no one ever made it to close range...

The kind of longbowmen England and Scotland fielded were good in close combat in part because the lifelong training developed their upper body strength a lot. They were also trained for it.
 
Except the Swiss, for whatever reason. Mercenary Englishmen did nothing much to save Charles the Bold against peasants with pikes.

General underestimating of the Swiss? My people rarely do anything of note so when you see rabble of them chasing you with pikes you simply laugh and go on with your day.


archaeogeek said:
The kind of longbowmen England and Scotland fielded were good in close combat in part because the lifelong training developed their upper body strength a lot. They were also trained for it.

That's what I figured. Must have been a hell of a mean, lean killing machine - type army.
 
Were the longbowmen trained in close combat? I'm guessing they were otherwise I agree with Fell that they had problems at close range.

No more then the other Men at Arms.

Of course no one ever made it to close range

If you believe the traditional story of Agincourt (Or Kenneth Branagh's adaptation :p) they did. The story goes the French did reach the line, and push the Longbowman line back, whom kept firing arrows until they ran out. And then picked up melee weapons and joined the fray. The Duke of York died, how else unless the French did close range?

He couldn't because nobody made longbows anymore, because he'd have no trained longbows, and because what you get when you have longbowmen who aren't trained from birth is what happened with the francs-archers french magnates tried to raise to emulate the Plantagenets: you get archers but not the kind of archers England had. So basically you'd get a costly, archaic replacement for artillery that will be less efficient and more vulnerable than proper modern artillery.

Of course, of course. I merely meant, if the problem of inventing a generation that could actually use longbows was solved, couldn't Wellington of avoided the problem the member I was quoting of requiring protection. After all, an advantage of bows over muskets (And crossbows for that matter) is they can be fired in an arc, meaning more then the first two rows can fire, and over the heads of troops infront.
 
Well, I have a couple things I need to bring up.

One: Wellington never asked for longbowmen. It's more or less an urban legend, as I haven't yet come across an actual source or context for any such statement (or even such a quote). Wikipedia does state it, of course, but it cites Cornwell's Harlequin (Grail Quest) as its source. Which is historical fiction: thus, I must dispute it (though honestly I'm too lazy to bring it up on wikipedia, so someone else should do it :p).

That being said, by all means, let the British train longbowmen. I mean its not like there's any benefit to them at all. It costs far more to produce a longbow then a musket, and far more to produce arrows than bullets and gunpowder, in both money and time. Beyond sufficient sources of yew being found only in French-controlled areas, fletching, crafting, and fitting an arrow together is great fun, I suppose, but when pouring lead into moulds makes your bullets and gunpowder can be produced in large quantities, its completely inefficient and costly. Also, longbows have the tendency to wear out and break. Then there's also the physical constraints of using it, as for someone to be able to draw a longbow, they have to spend years, over a decade at least, to be able to fire it to the standards of your medieval Briton. Not only do you have to develop what borders on ridiculous upper-body strength to do it, but your bones will be deformed as a result of doing so. You're pulling a 150- to 200-pound draw weight here: you have to start training continuously and frequently from youth to be able to do that. So whereas one might be able to train and replace a soldier with a musket relatively quickly (say, a few weeks, or months at the most), longbowmen are irreplaceable, as they will take a lifetime to train. Certainly, you could tone down the draw weight, but then its not a longbow, now is it? Moreover, doing so reduces both its range, lethality, etc.

It must also be noted that the fire rate and range of the longbow is greatly exaggerated by a number of posters. An exceptional (note the exceptional) longbowman in the Middle Ages could fire two arrows in three seconds. Does that mean he can fire forty arrows in a minute? Muscle fatigue greatly diminishes the rate of fire of a longbow as time goes on (not to mention things such as sickness, weariness, hunger, and attrition), and thus the quality and effectiveness of your longbowman will diminish as a campaign continues, faster then your musketeer, whom only needs to be able to raise a gun, load it, and fire. Already, the optimal sustained rate of fire for a longbow is comparable to musket rates of fire with the Prussian drill, and their effective range is actually far less than what is commonly stated, as their lethality goes down proportional to the distance (moreso than a bullet). Their effective range is thus much diminished.

Moreover, longbows are unwieldy. In close quarters, they're far too ineffective to use properly, whereas a gun can be used both as a spear and a club. This is also exacerbated in siege situations, wherein the cramped conditions makes firing a bow much more difficult than a gun (not to mention you can also take cover with a gun).

In addition to this, longbow trajectory is diagonal, and for its extreme ranges, has to rely partially on gravity. This trajectory actually makes the longbow more inaccurate than guns, which have a more horizontal trajectory, as people can simply move out of the way of the arrow volleys (not possible with a more horizontal trajectory); thus, the archer force has to anticipate and correctly assess their opponent's movements, else they're liable to miss entirely (see Marathon for an example of this).

Arrows are also less lethal than bullets. Also, given that we're on this subject, the longbow doesn't fit the same role of the musket. Longbow was an artillery weapon, fired in volleys, and as such, is actually comparable to cannon and artillery. Which, in this regards, they are outclassed heavily.

Moreover, by the time of the Renaissance, armor had already developed to the point where longbow arrows couldn't penetrate it. The only response to this is that one has to put more force behind the projectile. However, as I already noted, longbows pushed the limits of the human body already, and thus isn't possible to improve upon. Hence the world adopting crossbows and guns, with guns coming to the front due to cost, environmental aspects, etc.

The longbow was dropped for a reason.

So if the British did decide to use longbowmen units in the Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars, well...

I expect them to be gutted by a cavalry or a bayonet charge, or blasted apart by either cannon or musket volleys; then, the British will cry about losing what amounts to a fortune in training and expenditure, and being unable to replace the units. Then the French win the war, as the British spent the large amounts of treasure necessary to subsidize coalitions against the French on longbowmen.

Of course no one ever made it to close range...
You're kidding, right? Because I can pull up half a dozen examples where they did without even thinking about it. Actually I can't think of a single battle involving longbows where the opposing force didn't make it to close range. And, assuming the force that reaches the longbowmen still maintains the semblance of organization, they would almost certainly rout the longbowmen (due to the near complete lack of armor on the longbowmen), be they men-at-arms or cavalry.

Of course, of course. I merely meant, if the problem of inventing a generation that could actually use longbows was solved, couldn't Wellington of avoided the problem the member I was quoting of requiring protection. After all, an advantage of bows over muskets (And crossbows for that matter) is they can be fired in an arc, meaning more then the first two rows can fire, and over the heads of troops infront.
They still need to know where the opposing force is. You could fire a volley from the other side of a hill, sure, but you have no guarantee that a single arrow will hit their targets if you're firing blind (and if they're moving rapidly). They also have to remain within musket range, and most certainly within cannonading range, to fire and hit something. Also, mortars and howitzers.
 
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archaeogeek

Banned
They still need to know where the opposing force is. You could fire a volley from the other side of a hill, sure, but you have no guarantee that a single arrow will hit their targets if you're firing blind (and if they're moving rapidly). Also, mortars and howitzers.

Horrible things, they killed the sole aesthetically pleasing type of fortification ever conceived in the west, the trace italienne :p
 
Also, almost forgot. While most of the American Indians did use bows, they would practically without exception switch to muskets and guns when they could help it. Guns are much better for ambushes (easier to hold, etc, and much more useful in close combat) and the kind of irregular fighting they do. Thing is, they didn't have any actual gun or ammunition production capabilities.

Horrible things, they killed the sole aesthetically pleasing type of fortification ever conceived in the west, the trace italienne :p
So they are, and so they did. :p Still, making a mortar out of a tree trunk is pretty awesome.

In any event, longbows in the Napoleonic era are useless. Their niche is filled by things which do their job much, much better. See: all the different forms of cannon.
 
If we did see a regiment of longbow men in the Napoleonic wars, they would be like a smaller version of the green jackets, specialized, accomplishing a limited role, and having a disproportionately large amount of Napoleonic reenactment units representing them.

I think the British high command is going to nip it in the bud just to prevent that fate.:D
 
Then there's also the physical constraints of using it, as for someone to be able to draw a longbow, they have to spend years, over a decade at least, to be able to fire it to the standards of your medieval Briton. Not only do you have to develop what borders on ridiculous upper-body strength to do it, but your bones will be deformed as a result of doing so. You're pulling a 150- to 200-pound draw weight here: you have to start training continuously and frequently from youth to be able to do that.

So basically, using a medieval warbow is akin to doing a one-armed pullup with one arm and a one-armed handstand with the other arm (since the pulling and pushing forces on the bow would be equal at 150-200 pounds each), every five seconds or so for many minutes. There would be very few people today who could do that for more than a few cycles.
 
So basically, using a medieval warbow is akin to doing a one-armed pullup with one arm and a one-armed handstand with the other arm (since the pulling and pushing forces on the bow would be equal at 150-200 pounds each), every five seconds or so for many minutes. There would be very few people today who could do that for more than a few cycles.
Yep. It takes a lifetime to develop the upper muscle strength and skill for it, and, even then, they can't really sustain 12 arrows/minute: at first, yes, but the rate of fire slows down as the battle wears on due to muscle fatigue (Medieval longbowmen had to rip their tendons and ligaments just to fire, which is, interestingly enough, how we can tell longbowmen skeletons apart from the others). And, once again, it also depends greatly on the health of the longbowman, which can't always be guaranteed.

Modern longbows typically have a draw weight of around 60 pound, which is what was typically found in hunting bows back in the Medieval Ages. I suppose that's telling. :p
 
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