Lands of Red and Gold

[Admiral Matt]

I've always thought it must have been quite a moment, to have gradually grown to know Europeans sailing into your ports, then realizing what these rather unimpressive people had done to massive empires like your own....

And AA was, quite simply, perfect.

Good stuff.

 

[Rich Rostrom]

Thoughts?

P.S. This post concludes Act 1 of Lands of Red and Gold (posts #20-69); the previous posts 0-19 formed an extended prologue. I'll shortly be reformatting the website version of the timeline to show the new structure (although this won't change the content of the timeline in any significant way). LoRaG will resume soon with Act 2.

As always, brilliant. I think people will be reading this in a hundred years.

 

[Mark-ITSOT]

Where exactly are these "Islands"?

I have a large map of Australia in an oversized atlas, and the place isn't exactly abounding in islands.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Where exactly are these "Islands"?

I have a large map of Australia in an oversized atlas, and the place isn't exactly abounding in islands.

The "Island" is Kangaroo Island. There are maps earlier on in the thread that show where these countries are.

 

[Roberto]

Very good update this was. Excited for more I am.

 

[The Sandman]

Just thought of something odd.

I think I know the most logical way for camels to be introduced to Aururia.

Whichever European power ends up building an outpost in the north (whether at the OTL site of Darwin, somewhere along the Gulf of Carpentaria, or elsewhere) will import them in order to start running caravans south to the settled lands of the *Murray basin, in order to circumvent whichever power ends up in control of the sea route to the area.

 

[altwere]

I like that Idea.

 

[Falecius]

General consideration: what about Norfolk and Lord Howe Islands?
Lord Howe is relatively close to Australia; a small group of Kiyungu or close people could have conceivably settled it before European contact.
It does not amount to much, unless you take into account that Norfolk was settled by Polynesians, probably Maori IOTL.
IRL, the settlement disappeared, but ITTL it sould be become a stop along a minor trade route to core Polynesia (Fiji) and maybe Melanesia (New Caledonia, although it's trickier), either slightly before or shortly after the Houtmanian Interchange.
I don't expect sustained contact, but some level of it might happen if both islands are settled; and they are likely to end up to be hosting a cultural mix of Aururia and Polynesia.
On a related note, does this TL allow for the continued existence of the "Maori" settelment in the OTL's Kermadec Islands?

 

[Tonymecury]

Where exactly are these "Islands"?

I have a large map of Australia in an oversized atlas, and the place isn't exactly abounding in islands.

Wiki reckons 8222 islands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_Australia

For whatever that is worth

 

[Jared]

He seems like a fun guy...

Why, yes, he is.

And you can draw whatever conclusions you wish from the fact that he's apparently familiar enough with the New Testament to make those sort of references.

And how long have you been waiting to use that line?

Delighted I am, to opportunity finally have had.

What does kuros mean?

Kuroi is the Japanese term for "Black". Kuros is probably derived from that via the Dutch presence in Japan.

Yes. Pieter Nuyts picked up the word during his captivity in Japan. He used it during his ill-fated conquistador expedition against the Yadji, and the other people of his expedition. Including Wulff, who was the master cannoneer captured in the final battle.

I've always thought it must have been quite a moment, to have gradually grown to know Europeans sailing into your ports, then realizing what these rather unimpressive people had done to massive empires like your own....

The Gunnagal, and maybe a couple of other Aururian nations, have the mixed blessing that they are capable of grasping what a threat these newcomers are. In one sense they're better off knowing, but in another sense, does knowing only make it worse? The ravages of disease and threats of superior technology will be hard to overcome, though they are fortunate in their geography. Being simply so far away from Europe is a protection.

As always, brilliant. I think people will be reading this in a hundred years.

Thanks!

Where exactly are these "Islands"?

I don't follow. The only Island referred to is singular, and as AE mentioned, that's Kangaroo Island.

Though Australia does have some chains of islands, notably Tasmania and smaller islands (King Island, the Flinders group, etc), the many islands formed along the Great Barrier Reef, etc.

Very good update this was. Excited for more I am.

Posted soon more will be.

I think I know the most logical way for camels to be introduced to Aururia.

Whichever European power ends up building an outpost in the north (whether at the OTL site of Darwin, somewhere along the Gulf of Carpentaria, or elsewhere) will import them in order to start running caravans south to the settled lands of the *Murray basin, in order to circumvent whichever power ends up in control of the sea route to the area.

That is an interesting idea. Crossing the desert is one hell of a trip, but it could certainly be done if the incentive is there. It would also require the European power to still have enough shipping control to get things safely home from their port at, say, Karumba on the Gulf of Carpentaria. Having that amount of shipping control is much easier than trying to control the *Murray Mouth, of course.

General consideration: what about Norfolk and Lord Howe Islands?

I've mulled over various possibilities for these islands, but haven't reached a definite conclusion yet.

Lord Howe is too far south for the Kiyungu to have visited (unless blown way off course), but the Islanders and/or Maori would probably have found it by now. The Islanders wouldn't bother to settle it, but the Maori probably would - they tried just about every other island they found, after all. Lord Howe Island is also too far out to sea to serve as an Islander resupply station, and for the pre-contact situation, it's also right at the limit of their trading contact anyway.

Post-European contact, if the Maori settlement has failed, the Islanders may have a bit more interest in Lord Howe. The Nuttana will be in active trade with New Zealand, and a resupply port at Lord Howe makes much more sense then.

Norfolk Island is interesting in that Polynesians (presumably Maori) did settle there - as you mention - but the settlement eventually failed, probably some time hauntingly close before European contact comes ITTL.

ATL, how do things change? The Maori do have some (very minor) contact with their ancestral homelands in eastern Polynesia (Cook Islands/Society Islands), but there's not a lot of ongoing trade, mostly because there's nothing much in Polynesia that the Maori find worth trading for. Much the same would apply to any contact with New Caledonia or Fiji. So any trade routes would be so little-used that I don't think they would be enough to keep the OTL settlement from eventually failing.

Again, post-European contact, any flagging Maori settlement on Norfolk may be revived by contact with the Nuttana. If their settlement has faded by then (and it probably was gone) then the Islanders may well resettle Norfolk.

On a related note, does this TL allow for the continued existence of the "Maori" settelment in the OTL's Kermadec Islands?

Only if it was still around circa 1650 or so, when it will fall under similar conditions to the ATL fate of Lord Howe and Norfolk.

 

[The Sandman]

That is an interesting idea. Crossing the desert is one hell of a trip, but it could certainly be done if the incentive is there. It would also require the European power to still have enough shipping control to get things safely home from their port at, say, Karumba on the Gulf of Carpentaria. Having that amount of shipping control is much easier than trying to control the *Murray Mouth, of course.

I'm thinking Portugal as a good prospect for that. Timor gives them an intermediate base between Aururia and elsewhere, which is something that the other Europeans who still don't have a preferred faction in Aururia are sorely lacking in. The Spanish could try from the Philippines, I suppose, but I don't think Spain at this point would have bothered.

The Portugese also, I believe, have both the connections necessary to acquire camels and the access to the East African slaving networks needed to acquire porters.

Also, a base on the Gulf of Carpentaria could be used to support expeditions to Queensland, starting an overland route to the locals (including the Nuttana, IIRC) that avoids the Great Barrier Reef.

...hmm, actually, that almost makes me think it could end up as a joint project between the Portugese and Nuttana, with the Portugese putting an additional base in *Arnhem Land or on *Groote Eylandt as a stopover point between Timor and the Carpentaria port. Even given that the Nuttana live there, the Reef is still going to make things difficult.

 

[Admiral Matt]

I get why the Maori wouldn't value sailing to Polynesia, but not yet why the Polynesians wouldn't value sailing to Aotearoa. Wouldn't they have both incentive and means?

 

[Roberto]

I get why the Maori wouldn't value sailing to Polynesia, but not yet why the Polynesians wouldn't value sailing to Aotearoa. Wouldn't they have both incentive and means?

Well, if the Tongans and Fijians don't hav anything the Maori want, they won't b getting anything from the Maori in return.

 

[Archangel]

I'm thinking Portugal as a good prospect for that. Timor gives them an intermediate base between Aururia and elsewhere, which is something that the other Europeans who still don't have a preferred faction in Aururia are sorely lacking in. The Spanish could try from the Philippines, I suppose, but I don't think Spain at this point would have bothered.

The Portugese also, I believe, have both the connections necessary to acquire camels and the access to the East African slaving networks needed to acquire porters.

Also, a base on the Gulf of Carpentaria could be used to support expeditions to Queensland, starting an overland route to the locals (including the Nuttana, IIRC) that avoids the Great Barrier Reef.

...hmm, actually, that almost makes me think it could end up as a joint project between the Portugese and Nuttana, with the Portugese putting an additional base in *Arnhem Land or on *Groote Eylandt as a stopover point between Timor and the Carpentaria port. Even given that the Nuttana live there, the Reef is still going to make things difficult.

The Kimberley area would also be a good stopover for the Portuguese.

 

[The Sandman]

The Kimberley area would also be a good stopover for the Portuguese.

Wrong direction. The only Aururian civilization on the west side of the continent is the Atjuntja, and they're well on their way to becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Dutch East India Company.

 

[Jared]

I'm thinking Portugal as a good prospect for that. Timor gives them an intermediate base between Aururia and elsewhere, which is something that the other Europeans who still don't have a preferred faction in Aururia are sorely lacking in. The Spanish could try from the Philippines, I suppose, but I don't think Spain at this point would have bothered.

The Portuguese are certainly the most likely candidate in the short term. Other nations (apart from Spain) would need to establish a presence somewhere else first, as part of a broader colonisation effort. This may happen, particularly if France or Denmark are taking a greater/earlier interest in India and the East Indies, but Portugal has the head start.

The Portugese also, I believe, have both the connections necessary to acquire camels and the access to the East African slaving networks needed to acquire porters.

Would slaves be needed as porters? Anyone who's familiar with camels should do. (Afghans were used in OTL).

Also, a base on the Gulf of Carpentaria could be used to support expeditions to Queensland, starting an overland route to the locals (including the Nuttana, IIRC) that avoids the Great Barrier Reef.

Perhaps to parts of southern inland Queensland. The Darling Downs (called Neeburra ITTL) would be one possibility, depending on whether what they produce is available at a price which suits Europeans.

One trade good which would be valued, if available, is gems. This depends on how far inland agriculture has spread north since the development/introduction of crops which can grow in the tropics.

The central highlands region of Queensland includes a region called the Gemfields, with towns featuring typically imaginative Australian names such as Emerald, Sapphire, and Rubyvale. (Guess what they mine there?) I'd have to check whether the gemstones would be identifiable and accessible with the local level of technology, but if they are, then that will be a powerful incentive for anyone to establish trade there.

But for the Nuttana, trade with any Gulf of Carpentaria port will almost certainly go by sea. The territory in between is not at all conducive to road-building: mountains and jungle, and roads utterly impassable in the wet season even with twenty-first century technology.

...hmm, actually, that almost makes me think it could end up as a joint project between the Portugese and Nuttana, with the Portugese putting an additional base in *Arnhem Land or on *Groote Eylandt as a stopover point between Timor and the Carpentaria port. Even given that the Nuttana live there, the Reef is still going to make things difficult.

The Great Barrier Reef can be difficult to navigate, but it presents less of a barrier to the Nuttana, who use shallower-draft vessels than Europeans. They will actually come to like the reef, since it makes it harder for Europeans to raid them.

I get why the Maori wouldn't value sailing to Polynesia, but not yet why the Polynesians wouldn't value sailing to Aotearoa. Wouldn't they have both incentive and means?

Well, if the Tongans and Fijians don't hav anything the Maori want, they won't b getting anything from the Maori in return.

No doubt a few Tongans, Fijians etc have sailed to Aotearoa. The problems with sustained contact are two-fold:

(i) as Roberto said, the Polynesians can't really offer anything that interests the Maori, so trading contact is right out; and this leads into
(ii) the traditional Maori hostility to outsiders (for good reason) makes it hard to keep up any sort of contact with them, especially if you have nothing valuable to offer in trade.

So while there may well be occasional contact by Tongans and Fijians - after all, the Maori aren't universally hostile - it's not going to be a significant trade route or anything like that.

The Kimberley area would also be a good stopover for the Portuguese.

Wrong direction. The only Aururian civilization on the west side of the continent is the Atjuntja, and they're well on their way to becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Dutch East India Company.

The Kimberley region may be settled by the Portuguese off their own bat, as an offshoot of their stronger interest in Timor, but yes, it doesn't lead to much of trade interest in itself. Perhaps as a backup for a longer inland trade route if anything goes wrong in the Gulf of Carpentaria port, but not the primary route.

As for the Atjuntja... yes, they are not in an ideal position to retain their independence.

 

[Julius Vogel]

I must admit I would like to see a Maori Norfolk Island. I get that it may be hard to arrange (the point of it principally), but it could make things interesting later on.

At the very least it may give *Aotearoa more EEZ in ATL's no doubt certain to happen law of the sea conventions

 

[The Sandman]

Would slaves be needed as porters? Anyone who's familiar with camels should do. (Afghans were used in OTL).

Cheapness and access, I'd imagine; the Portugese will probably have an easier time getting slaves and hiring a few camel handlers than they would hiring an entire caravan's worth of people. Plus, given the likely trajectory of sugar (and other cash crop) plantations in Queensland, as well as the impending labor shortage in much of Aururia thanks to disease, the slaves would themselves be one of the trade goods.

Perhaps to parts of southern inland Queensland. The Darling Downs (called Neeburra ITTL) would be one possibility, depending on whether what they produce is available at a price which suits Europeans.

And, I think, whether their produce is also a desirable trade good in the Asian markets.

If it is, then even if the price isn't suitable for shipping back to Europe, it might be suitable for shipping to Manila, Nagasaki, Macao or another of the Asian trade entrepôts where it can be exchanged for something else.

Additional trade goods for the Chinese market aside from gold and silver bullion would be an especially big deal.

One trade good which would be valued, if available, is gems. This depends on how far inland agriculture has spread north since the development/introduction of crops which can grow in the tropics.

The central highlands region of Queensland includes a region called the Gemfields, with towns featuring typically imaginative Australian names such as Emerald, Sapphire, and Rubyvale. (Guess what they mine there?) I'd have to check whether the gemstones would be identifiable and accessible with the local level of technology, but if they are, then that will be a powerful incentive for anyone to establish trade there.

And, assuming they are, would probably end up as yet another place that slave labor would be introduced to Aururia. Unless the gems are possible to just pick up off the surface, anyway.

But for the Nuttana, trade with any Gulf of Carpentaria port will almost certainly go by sea. The territory in between is not at all conducive to road-building: mountains and jungle, and roads utterly impassable in the wet season even with twenty-first century technology.

Suspected it was bad, but didn't realize it was quite that bad.

Are any of the rivers in the region navigable?

The Great Barrier Reef can be difficult to navigate, but it presents less of a barrier to the Nuttana, who use shallower-draft vessels than Europeans. They will actually come to like the reef, since it makes it harder for Europeans to raid them.

That is a good point.

Still, I wonder if they would eventually want to have somewhere that they can load up deeper-draft (and therefore larger) vessels for the long-distance journeys.

No doubt a few Tongans, Fijians etc have sailed to Aotearoa. The problems with sustained contact are two-fold:

(i) as Roberto said, the Polynesians can't really offer anything that interests the Maori, so trading contact is right out; and this leads into
(ii) the traditional Maori hostility to outsiders (for good reason) makes it hard to keep up any sort of contact with them, especially if you have nothing valuable to offer in trade.

So while there may well be occasional contact by Tongans and Fijians - after all, the Maori aren't universally hostile - it's not going to be a significant trade route or anything like that.

Actually, the Polynesians (unfortunately for their future prospects) do have two things that would interest the Maori: labor and land.

Slaving, of course, happened OTL, but ITTL I think it's going to be worse thanks to more demand for them. The land thing is even bigger, though; the ongoing Maori consolidation means that an outlet for ambitious young men who would otherwise be trying to overthrow their current rulers will be very useful. Wars aren't exactly a desirable export, but Maori technological and numerical superiority means that the Polynesians won't really get much of a say in it.

On a different Aotearoa-related subject, jade is another good (along with flax) that would be worth the danger of going there; in particular, jade would be lucrative enough for European merchants to risk hostile Maori, thanks to its value in China.

The Kimberley region may be settled by the Portuguese off their own bat, as an offshoot of their stronger interest in Timor, but yes, it doesn't lead to much of trade interest in itself. Perhaps as a backup for a longer inland trade route if anything goes wrong in the Gulf of Carpentaria port, but not the primary route.

Well, at least until somebody stumbles across the gold.

As for the Atjuntja... yes, they are not in an ideal position to retain their independence.

I suppose the question then becomes how thoroughly the Dutch integrate them, and what role the Atjuntja will play in the Dutch empire aside from subjugated natives.

 

[Julius Vogel]

Well, if given the opportunity, some OTL Maori did prove pretty keen to visit previously unknown or hard to reach places for purposes of war, if European shipping. The Chatham Islands massacre is one example

Then of course European food and other technology made it easier for Maori to go on longer distance/longer term raids as well, during the Musket Wars.


Obviously ATL Maoridom is very different and perhaps more focused on their own domestic position and less focusing on adventuring, but I could see someone being willing to go on a frolic to the South Seas with 200 of their closest armed friends.

 

[Roberto]

Well, there is one way that the larger Polynesian states could become involved with the Aururia-Aotearoa trade network. Let's say one European power or another (probably a minor colonial power) gets booted out of Aururia but still has commercial interests in SE Asia and Oceania (Portugal seems to be likely here). Assuming the major powers in Aururia (Netherlands and England, I assume will be) hold heavy enough chokeholds on their respective slices of the continent, the remaining option for buying kunduri, spices, cider, opals, etc would be through the Maori. If Portugal can gain direct access to Aotearoa, the chain of trade would end there, but if the Maori a) remain xenophobic against unfamiliar nations or b) the Maori cooperate with whatever trading complex is in place to limit European involvement in Aururia, then the Portuguese may have no choice but to flood Tongan and Fijian markets with muskets and other European-made goods, with the return being Polynesian entrepreneurs returning from their visits to their long-lost cousins with Aururian goods. A bit tenuous, but certainly possible.