Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

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Classic! I like how the Thule have acquired at least one daft thing that they do.

Another PoD for this TL: what if the Thule never invented Walrus riding, and thus avoided the defenestration of their proto-scientific shaman class in the vital years pre-contact.

fasquardon
 
You can't spell "valourous" without most of "walrus".

And so, the crazy implausible idea we all couldn't get out of our heads becomes...a crazy implausible idea the Thule can't get out of their heads. I'm actually laughing.
 
Thank you

As for the genetics thing, I agree that it would be hard to do with walruses, but plants aren't so far outside the realm of possibility. The key would be a recessive trait that produces something useful in one of the plants the Thule cultivate (don't have time to do that research at the moment). If such exists, then some shaman has a pretty good chance of stumbling upon the idea of dominant and recessive alleles, as they try to get the useful cultivar to breed true.

And heritance spirits would be cool. :)

Considering Europe and Asia, with their much higher populations and much higher levels of technology, didn't figure it out genetics until the late 1800s, I think it would be very difficult for the Thule.
 
Considering Europe and Asia, with their much higher populations and much higher levels of technology, didn't figure it out genetics until the late 1800s, I think it would be very difficult for the Thule.

Concurr.

Anyway, going to get into Caribou riding. Then going to Asia to see what's been happening there.
 
Since no other discussion is going on at the moment:
Once you get north of a certain point IOTL, there really isn't much in the way of habitation. Aside from a few (non self-sustaining) settlements and a few (self-sustaining) native camps, you're pretty much out of human beings. But ITTL, Thule crops and social technology might make it possible for larger populations in what (even in modern times IOTL) would otherwise be frozen wastelands. This fact might add a whole different "layer" of east-west axis countries.

The upshot is that by modern times you get the US, and Canada, AND something else (Thulandia?). You get China, Mongolia, Russia, AND something else (Siberia? Laptevia?). And what about northern Fennoscandia? Thulisized Laplandia?

Just a thought
 
Hm, what I have been imagining is that by the modern day we might get something like this:

Either a single Sea Thule state, or various islands being colonized by Europeans, and the larger ones decolonized and made independent by the modern day.

A fairly large Throndhiem or Norway with a 70/30 mix between Europeans and Thule and a history of being a major colonial and trading power in the North (possibly having a bun h of the Sea Thule islands as dependencies still).

A Pomor region of Russia - still part of Russia, but as populous as today's Belarus and as culturally distinct as the Ukraine is from Russia.

A Siberian Thule empire - either independent or an empire within an empire, as a Chinese or Russian autonomous region.

Thule Labrador/Greenland - which would likely have the most bitter colonial memories.

A large central Thule state based on the Hudson & Mackenzie complexes.

An Alaska/Pacific Thule state - most likely place to have escaped outright colonization.

You might also get a whole bunch of Indian and Siberian autonomous areas in places where pressure and trade from the Thule encouraged the genesis of strong confederations, which are better able to resist European and Japanese colonization as a result.

fasquardon
 
Why did it take so long OTL, as far as I can tell it was just observation and record keeping.

The sheer complexity of the system mainly - even the simplest organisms have thousands of genes, whose functions are modified in, well, we don't know how many ways yet.

It is worth remembering, even after Mendel published, it took another century of work to prove the general usefulness of his observations (even Mendel himself didn't think his work had any wide applicability), and that proof was the discovery of DNA and the birth of modern biochemical science.

The peas Mendel was using were also very cooperative - they had distinctive properties that were passed down in predictable ways - most organisms do not pass down their properties so distinctively. Things skip generations, or appear to be blendings of the traits of the parents, or appear to be responses to the environment.

So even if there were a "Mendel" of the Thule, who carefully notes the properties of the peas he is breeding, the knowledge is likely to remain a curious piece of pea lore until the rest of Thule research caught up to the point that they could generalize the knowledge.

fasquardon
 
Oh yes, I wasn't making any guesses about the "Thule-ness" of those polar states, but I think there will be independant polities with borders further north than we can see IOTL. Thule culture may end up like Basque or Aztec culture, with a huge impact on modern civilization (in terms of nautical technology and agriculture, respectively), but not much representation in the current world.
I hope the Thule get to do something interesting though.
 
I was speaking of Thule-ness in pretty general terms. The Aztecs had a huge impact on Mexican culture and genetics (the Aztecs were one of the few peoples whose culture and language continued to expand during the Spanish period).

Actually, the Thule might enjoy both Mapuche-model and Nauhatl-model expansion during the colonial period. At least in some areas. (The Nauhatl culture and language expanded due to being the lieutenants of the Spanish in running the Viceroy of New Spain - it was the language used by the Spanish to communicate with their new subjects and Nauhatl-speaking people dominated in the civil service and the army. The Mapuche expanded because they were a warlike people who adapted European techonolgy (mainly horses) to their own circumstances very successfully. The Mapuche were still proudly independent and conquering their neighbours into the late 19th Century, at which point both Chile and Argentina allied against them and crushed them.)

To get back to the original point though, I suspect that just like alot of the Aztec's descendants, there will be plenty of Thule descendants , who, despite being 90% Thule genetically and living in a culture permeated by Thule influences, will consider themselves "European". Though... The Thule are more distinct cosmetically from the Northern Europeans than the Mexica were from the Spanish. Maybe the Thule colonial experience will be more like that in the Indies as a result, with a long period of living under Europeans, but with racism impeding the ability of the Thule to join the ruling class.

fasquardon
 
This is all assuming that "colonization" as we term it happens as OTL, considering that the Thule and Scandinavians are meeting as early as they are and the importation of Thule methods and peoples to Europe rather than European peoples to the North American Arctic has little to no precedent in OTL. The closest thing I can think of (non western culture being imported into western culture) would be African Americans, who have developed a culture all their own neither fully copying European culture nor resembling African culture, I could see the Scandinavian especially, and Russian less so, Thule forming a society within a society along these lines, perhaps even become the arbitrator of style like African American culture has become in the United States.

In North America (north North America?;)) It may be a different matter but regardless such early contact and with trade, influence and population moving both ways (is it? Thule will immigrate/migrate to norther Europe but how many Europeans are honestly going to move to Baffin Island?) I don't think that the colonization of North America will reflect any OTL location, especially since DValdron has demonstrated an knack for coming up with scenarios that constantly surprise and rarely rely on the mirror theory of Alt-Hist. (i.e. America=Russia, Russia=India etc.)
 
This is all assuming that "colonization" as we term it happens as OTL

Even with the Thule influencing Europe in strange and interesting ways, I can't think of any way that the Thule could derail the European trajectory enough to stop something like the 19th Century industrial subjugation of pretty much the entire planet happening within +/-100 years of when it did in our history. If anything, it is most likely that the Thule accelerate the rise of Europe since Europe is best placed to trade with them and is best placed to take advantage of the new Thule crops. Nor do I think the Thule interaction with Europe is likely to make the white man significantly more enlightened at the time when Europe is riding high on the industrial revolution.

So my bet is that "colonization" as we term it does happen, and even if the Thule manage to escape the worst of it, they still experience some degree of European subjugation.

fasquardon
 
I think Thule culture, at least in North America, is mostly going to survive as a unit more or less undiluted by European influence, even more than Nahuatl. The thing is, native Mexican culture's assimilation a large number of traits from Spanish culture to a large degree due to the migration of Spaniards and the intermarriage that resulted. In the Thule lands... well, even if they were as rich as Mexico, how many people would want to move there? It's fucking cold. I imagine any colonized Thule areas would have a European administrative and garrison class and little other European settlement, ruling over a Thule population that keeps most of its native ways.
 
I think Thule culture, at least in North America, is mostly going to survive as a unit more or less undiluted by European influence, even more than Nahuatl. The thing is, native Mexican culture's assimilation a large number of traits from Spanish culture to a large degree due to the migration of Spaniards and the intermarriage that resulted. In the Thule lands... well, even if they were as rich as Mexico, how many people would want to move there? It's fucking cold. I imagine any colonized Thule areas would have a European administrative and garrison class and little other European settlement, ruling over a Thule population that keeps most of its native ways.

So sort of a collection of large Hong Kongs?
 
Even with the Thule influencing Europe in strange and interesting ways, I can't think of any way that the Thule could derail the European trajectory enough to stop something like the 19th Century industrial subjugation of pretty much the entire planet happening within +/-100 years of when it did in our history. If anything, it is most likely that the Thule accelerate the rise of Europe since Europe is best placed to trade with them and is best placed to take advantage of the new Thule crops. Nor do I think the Thule interaction with Europe is likely to make the white man significantly more enlightened at the time when Europe is riding high on the industrial revolution.

So my bet is that "colonization" as we term it does happen, and even if the Thule manage to escape the worst of it, they still experience some degree of European subjugation.

fasquardon

This is pretty much what I've said upthread, but with some qualifications:

1) As Hobelhouse says in the next post, what European wants to live in the friggin' Arctic? OTL of course lots wound up living in the tropics, the Arctic might be no worse and perhaps better from their POV--but no tropical European colony, however desired and even vital to their imperial schemes, ever got demographically or even culturally overwhelmed. One might point to the tropics of Australia, but that's something of a special case, Australia having been a very low population density and very technologically primitive place, and the fact that modern Australia claims tropical lands is a bit misleading--the population base overwhelmingly lives in the much more temperate southern coastal areas, and just keeps an outpost sort of foothold on the low tropical northern coast. Much as modern Canada has its high Arctic on the map, and patrols it, but hardly any Canadians who aren't of Inuit or other high Arctic Native descent live there.

If there had been a civilization comparable to the levels prevailing in Indonesia in the 16th century along the north Australian coast, the modern nation might not have that region included in its territory at all, and if it did, it would be a distinct subregion with very strong Native presence and culture and probably involve quite a lot of political friction.

The Europeans who do move into the Arctic will most likely be Northern Europeans, and as the timeline has already developed (if all good powers permitting, DValdron comes back and continues it, pretty please?:)) we see Scandinavia (greater Scandinavia, including Iceland) getting drawn in already. But in a fashion where the Thule cultural influence is already reacting strongly on their own societies; if this be European colonialism, it is of a different mode, one tending to create a hybrid, synergistic new society, which might serve as an early channel of transforming native Thule societies on their own terms to be more on an even technical level with European ones. Contact is not waiting on the convenience of great European empires moving into unclaimed, forbidding, largely empty territories in good time when they are much more developed, it is happening in the earliest days of European expansion, and yet unlike Mexico or Peru, highly unlikely to attract a flood of European colonists to transform the place by sheer numbers.

2) this leads to my "Ice Arab/Arctic Fastness" concepts which I've gone on about before and have little time to reiterate here. The Arctic is vast and forbidding enough, and the Thule competent enough at living there, that even a sustained and determined effort to subjugate the Thule lands will take time and be hard fought, while meanwhile the Thule have time to rally and for separate Thule states to negotiate positions within the evolving European system. I believe that there will be regions in the Arctic and high subArctic (in Asia especially) where Thule or Thule-dominated or cross-pollinated states will emerge that survive as at least nominally independent right up to modern times.

3)Meanwhile, regions of the rest of the world will eventually be transformed by the eventual spread of Thule agricultural package to enhance the productivity and hence population of a number of places, notably highlands. If Scotland or Switzerland are transformed, that doesn't change the big picture of European capitalist civilization still covering the world, true. What if it's Tibet though?

I have to admit, the vectors than can bring a suitable form of Thule package to Tibet don't seem likely to emerge until pretty late, mid-19th century is my guess. By then--but only by then--European agricultural science will have finally addressed the problem of the nature of the Arctic package and assimilated knowledge of how to grow these crops and where they might do well. By then, perhaps a century before then, some Thule crops will have developed markets in Europe and elsewhere and plantations that can provide more will be desired. By then, the vexed question of China's claim on Tibet will probably be eased by the general collapse of the Chinese state and disarray of its society under the assault of capitalistic trade. It is not so clear there would be a European power comparable to the British Raj of OTL running things in India, or anyway the Ganges valley, but it seems at any rate probable there would be some sort of channel for Europeans to come up against the Himalayas somehow.

So Tibet would have Thule crops introduced in the form of European-owned plantations--probably not as a straight European colony or protectorate as on paper Tibet remains a Chinese possession and it probably would not be in the general European interest to carve the place off just yet. By the mid-20th century, the crops will have spread from plantations to the general population which will be significantly larger--in the turmoil one can anticipate for China, I daresay a Tibetan state will split off then. And have the demographics, combined with forbidding geography and the support of First World patron powers, to deter a later Chinese reconquest.

This whole last point 3) is hardly an argument for a world deeply transformed, as Tibet and the strengthened (anyway more populous) Andean states we can also anticipate will hardly change the balance of power in the world. But it would be a somewhat different world anyway.

Heck, someone might even try settling the Antarctic coast and thus claim all of Antarctica as the colony of some European or other Western power!:D
 
>>Much as modern Canada has its high Arctic on the map, and patrols it, but hardly any Canadians who aren't of Inuit or other high Arctic Native descent live there.<<
I agree with that logic, but what with new crops and terraforming, TTL's Arctic won't be quite as forbidding as OTL's. Also, the Andes were pretty horrible for non-native people (what with all the hypoxia and fertility problems), but Spanish is still the big language in Chile and Peru today.

>>If Scotland or Switzerland are transformed<<
Population explosions in Scotland and Scandinavia? The Scottish Claytonia famine?

>>What if it's Tibet though?<<
Oooh.

But I think the bigger changes will be to northern and eastern Russia. Imagine if that territory was extensively farmed.

Also, what about European penal colonies in Thule territory?
 
Anyone who reads my early contributions to this thread knows I was quite enthusiastic and optimistic about how the Thule crop package would sweep across the world and open up new environments for existing civilizations to expand into.

Then DValdron poured some cold water on it, and I've taken some heed of that.

The Thule pattern involves quite a lot of investment, maintenance, and patience. Its crops generally require years to mature and cultivating them is much more than a matter of sowing some seeds in the ground. Thule crops will be adopted--by people who have relationships with living Thule, and listen to them and watch what they do. And doing that, DValdron did also point out, involves listening to instructions framed in the world view of an alien, non-Christian religious traditions.

So if the Scandinavian countries do give refuge to some actual Thule, and if the Nordic peoples living there can get into casual communications with them and keep an open mind about things being told and shown them by a bunch of pagans, it might take root there, where the traditional crops of Europe are near their northern limits. There, once the package is established and spreading, probably eventually it will be studied and appreciated in European terms.

At a wild guess I put that transitional generation in the 19th century. Maybe it can come earlier, but the farther back you go the more seriously Europeans will take their revulsion for alien religious notions, especially ones from such an alien worldview as the Thule have.

Meanwhile though, the Thule, more or less under attack in their Arctic homelands, also have time to pick up knowledge from Europe.

To subdue the Arctic would be a bit like Cortez's venture into Mexico, perhaps, in that suitable alliances with the right rival factions might set Thule against Thule, leaving Europeans to mop up and then establish themselves as the ruling elite of a more or less subjugated alien nation, and simply take the products of Thule labor as their tribute.

That by the way would not be a very efficient channel for spreading knowledge of how to actually manage the crops into Europe--the native Thule, reduced to peons or serfs (some of them anyway, others might share in the oligarchy), would not be very forthcoming, especially since doing so tends to get them executed for witchcraft!

Then there is the matter of sheer survival. I do grant, if someone does manage to set themselves up like this in the first place, they will learn many Thule tricks for avoiding hypothermia and frostbite, or getting lost in whiteout conditions, or otherwise weathering all the hazards of the Arctic. Their children and grandchildren, born and raised there, would have much better odds, being trained into these matters by habit.

But that's cart before the horse; first someone has to carve out a Thule colony for these Arctic-wise European colonists to be born and raised in!

Until then, the Thule have the home advantage, and DValdron went on about at considerable length earlier. Their very agriculture is dependent on major earthworks, a craft that can be turned to devising fortifications. But more than that, this thread has taught be the Inuit were quite aggressive and feared as such OTL. So were, I suppose one might point out, the Natives of Central America and Mexico were no pushovers either.

I'm quite willing to imagine that there will be incursions and missions that succeed and Thule will indeed be subjugated or extirpated. But not all of them!

And considering the sheer harshness of the Arctic, the most effective strategy for gaining hegemony would be to cultivate some Native allies.

Communiction would go between them, both ways.

The Thule have a chance to hold out and adjust, I think.
 
I'm looking forward to seeing what draws Europeans to the Arctic, since there is neither a shortcut to Asia (as in Mexico) or a mountain of silver (as in the Andes). I guess northern Canada has gold, and there are furs and there's timber. But a lack of good reason to beat the hostile natives away from their frozen and barren land might retard European colonization in the Arctic.

And if would-be Arctic conquistadors want furs or timber, they would probably do better to trade for them.

>>That by the way would not be a very efficient channel for spreading knowledge of how to actually manage the crops into Europe--the native Thule, reduced to peons or serfs (some of them anyway, others might share in the oligarchy), would not be very forthcoming, especially since doing so tends to get them executed for witchcraft!<<
There might end up being a secondary population implosion, when whatever native population that was left over by the plagues starves to death as they are no longer allowed the pagan practices that keep their land productive. There could be a major reversal of the terraforming the Thule pursued in the Arctic, similar to the Arab world's loss of irrigation after the Mongol Invasion.
 
I have to admit, the vectors than can bring a suitable form of Thule package to Tibet don't seem likely to emerge until pretty late, mid-19th century is my guess. By then--but only by then--European agricultural science will have finally addressed the problem of the nature of the Arctic package and assimilated knowledge of how to grow these crops and where they might do well. By then, perhaps a century before then, some Thule crops will have developed markets in Europe and elsewhere and plantations that can provide more will be desired. By then, the vexed question of China's claim on Tibet will probably be eased by the general collapse of the Chinese state and disarray of its society under the assault of capitalistic trade. It is not so clear there would be a European power comparable to the British Raj of OTL running things in India, or anyway the Ganges valley, but it seems at any rate probable there would be some sort of channel for Europeans to come up against the Himalayas somehow.

I like the idea of Russia s a vector. They'll be among the first to get Thule crops and will have experience spreading them up and down the Urals, which will give them experience with the whole daylight length issue. They may find Siberia occupied by more populous, hostile tribes and states that discourage eastern growth and cause them to focus comparatively more on Central Asia; this would give them a route to Tibet.
 
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