Japanese skip the Oscar and Zero?

The Japanese Army had a better industrial plan to upgrade their fighter force, then the Navy did. The IJN was pretty much stuck with the Zero for the whole war, at least for carrier service. Do you know why the Kawanishi N1/2K-J Violet Lightning (George) couldn't be adopted as a carrier fighter? Did it have too high a stall speed, or did it need too much runway?
That's a very good question, that I don't have the answer for :p. It appears to have been an excellent fighter, capable of holding its own against even the Hellcat and the Corsair, but I don't see anything suggesting a carrier version was ever attempted. Maybe it was because by the time the N1K2 entered service (1944) there simply weren't enough carriers left for it to be considered?
 
The next generation Japanese fighters had long development periods, and didn't really mature until 1944. While the fist generation Ki-61 and Ki-44 were both available in 1942, none of them were 1500HP fighters. The Ki-61 started with 1100HP and the Ki-44 with 1250HP. In this versions this fighters were valid alternatives to the A6M and Ki-43, but not really a generation ahead.
Not having the Ki-43 and the A6M, that were highly competitive fighters up to early 1943, would have been a total disaster for the Japanese, akin to the RAF using Gladiators until the Tempest and Griffon powered Spitfire were ready.
 
The Japanese Army had a better industrial plan to upgrade their fighter force, then the Navy did. The IJN was pretty much stuck with the Zero for the whole war, at least for carrier service. Do you know why the Kawanishi N1/2K-J Violet Lightning (George) couldn't be adopted as a carrier fighter? Did it have too high a stall speed, or did it need too much runway?
It was an Army aircraft
The Army didn't want to share with the Navy and the Navy did not want to suffer loss of face by having to use an modified Army aircraft
 
It was an Army aircraft
The Army didn't want to share with the Navy and the Navy did not want to suffer loss of face by having to use an modified Army aircraft
I think you’re confusing the IJA’s Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Frank) with the IJN’s Kawanishi N1K1-J and N1K2-J (George) which were developed from the N1K1 Rex Floatplane.

The Ki-84 was a replacement for the Army’s ubiquitous Ki-43 Oscar while the N1K2-J was to the best of my knowledge a Navy bird from the get-go. I always figured the Georges were limited to land-based use because the fleet carriers that would have been able to carry them were lost at Midway, Philippine Sea, and Leyte Gulf before the George entered widespread service.

Aside from the loss of Japanese carrier decks, the George’s use on carrier decks may have also been impacted by the planned availability of the Zero’s replacement, the Mitsubishi A7M Reppu. The Reppu was slated to replace the Zero on the new carrier Amagi which was laid down in 1942—I presume it would likely have replaced Zeros on other Japanese fleet carriers had they not been sunk. But the A7M had a tortured development due to engine development problems and later, production interruptions due to an earthquake and Allied bombing raids in late 1944-1945 which prevented it from ever seeing squadron service.
 
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The big advantage would be survivability... thing about the F4F's and F6F's was that they could be shot up to hell in a dogfight, and still make it back... the Zeros and the Oscars couldn't. Aircraft are easier to come by, even for Japan, than experienced pilots...
To make things worse the Japanese made no systematic effort to recue downed pilots. Many Japanese pilots died, lost in the waters of the Pacific just flying from Japan to bases in the islands of the South Pacific, or South East Asia. The advantage of long range fighters was they could self deploy, but navigating over vast regions of open water, and jungle covered islands, in often poor weather conditions, with almost no navigational aids cost heavy operational losses.
 
The fixed U/C fighters in question will need some nip & tuck in order to remain worthwhile. Adoption of retractble U/C is one of these steps. Eg. in Finland, such modified Fokker XXIs gained 'between 17 and 35 km/h' (link), or 10-22 mph. If we can get 15 mph in average, that is a Ki-27 doing 292+15= 307 mph. Not bad when compared with 1st Ki-43s that were doing 310 mph. Less drag will also improve the range a bit (it was 1000+ miles with a drop tank per OTL on the Ki-27).
A5M was slower, partially due to it not having the closed cockpit. So we'd want to rectify that, while also making retractable U/C.

For the fighters with powerful engines - the Ki-44 with a bit bigger wing is my bet for the Army, while Mitsubishi might be doing a carrier-borne fighter around the Kasei, with folding wings and butterfly flaps instead the J2M.
Not having Nakajima making 3 different Army fighters in 1941-1944 in the same factory might get more fighters in total. Have Kawanishi also making the Mitsubishi's fighter under licence.
 
That's a very good question, that I don't have the answer for :p. It appears to have been an excellent fighter, capable of holding its own against even the Hellcat and the Corsair, but I don't see anything suggesting a carrier version was ever attempted. Maybe it was because by the time the N1K2 entered service (1944) there simply weren't enough carriers left for it to be considered?
Yes, you may be right about the carriers, or they were just waiting for the A7M. Even though it was made by a different company it looks so much like a Zero, it may have had an advantage in combat. When Hellcat's, or Corsair's encountered it they may have misidentified it as a Zero, and under estimated it. Once engaged the American got a very unpleasant surprise. From a casual look at it's stats, it was a heavier aircraft then the Zero, with a higher wing loading, so it might have been too hot a fighter. That is it may have had too high a stall speed, and needed more running room for take offs. Being originally a float plane it's structure should've been stressed enough for tail hook landings. If anyone knows more about the George please tell us more about it.
 
Ah, it seem my addiction to Drach's videos finally comes in handy in this situation.

Courtesy of Cannonfodder43:
2:43 What aircraft did the A6M actually take over from and what aircraft was it actually contemporary to?
6:58 Tangent on Over-claiming
11:00 The Zero in context with its contemporaries.
18:16 What lessons did the Japanese Navy take into account when designing it?
21:44 Requirements as rewritten based on experience in China
27:31 Validity of the notion that the Zero has sub-optimal design choices due to limitations in the Japanese industry
32:13 What is the Zero actually called?
40:36 How did the A6M2 compare to the opponents it faced?
49:55 The claim that Japanese pilots preferred tail-chasing dogfights and tactics discussion
1:08:26 Japanese Tactical Formations till 1943
1:14:25 Validity to criticisms of the Zero
1:19:01 Armament
1:24:28 "Fragile Structure"
1:33:00 Origins to the Zero's vulnerability and history of aircraft protection features
1:41:51 Radio Reliability Issues
1:52:40 Zero vs Land Based fighters
2:03:35 At what point when was the Zero surpassed? Zero replacement design.
2:09:06 How much did the loss of Kido Butai's skilled pilot corp alter the perception of the Zero as the war progressed?
2:23:00 Where does the Zero sit accurately in the context of the Pacific War?
 
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The Japanese Army had a better industrial plan to upgrade their fighter force, then the Navy did. The IJN was pretty much stuck with the Zero for the whole war, at least for carrier service. Do you know why the Kawanishi N1/2K-J Violet Lightning (George) couldn't be adopted as a carrier fighter? Did it have too high a stall speed, or did it need too much runway?
HOW DARE YOU ASSUME THAT THE GLORIOUS IJN WOULD BOW DOWN AND BEG PLANES FROM THOSE SCUMS IN THE ARMY!!!! COMMIT SEPPUKKU NOW!!!

On a more serious note, the answer to your question could be summed up in this a single sentence: The greatest foe of the Imperial Japanese Army is the Imperial Japanese Navy and vice versa, they were backed by old and powerful samurai families who had beef with each other for a very very long time. Imagine the Valois vs. Plantagenet but 10 times worse, you cannot seriously asked them to share a platform because even they have different requirements for aircraft. Inter-service rivalry was a different kind of animal in Imperial Japan.

For further information:
 
If you don’t have the Zero but use an updated version of older aircraft in 41/42 and maybe early 43 you don’t need the new aircraft in 43 or later as you A) have no pilots left and B) your carriers are gone. It was only good aircraft such as the Xero flown by mostly experienced or well trained pilots (to start) that gave Japan the edge in the beginning and when the lost this edge from attrition and the US building newer aircraft and figuring out tactics to use against them the Japanse started on a downward spiral that can’t be stopped.
Frankly I expect that while the war itself won’t end much earlier (it takes to to build train and equip the invation forces and more time to invade the various islands along the way) I do think that in this timeline the US and GB will be fueling the seas by lat 42 or early 43 to such a degree that Japan will be defenseless. And will just have to sit on their islands waiting their turn to be invaded.
 
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Throwing a spanner in the works . . . .

Would license producing this baby help?

Much obliged!
 

Throwing a spanner in the works . . . .

Would license producing this baby help?

Much obliged!
The Allies thought for a time that the Japanese were producing, or at least using, the 190A-5 and gave it the code name "Fred" :)
Question I'd have would be, would they also license the BMW 801, or rig up one of their big radials in it? (801 was big for a 14 cyl, so I'd imagine it could be done). Only thing is, IIRC the 190 was, mechanically and electrically, rather complex. I think there may have been certain "quality control" issues if the Japanese attempted to start a production line, rather like when they started license-building the DB 605...
 
The next generation Japanese fighters had long development periods, and didn't really mature until 1944. While the fist generation Ki-61 and Ki-44 were both available in 1942, none of them were 1500HP fighters. The Ki-61 started with 1100HP and the Ki-44 with 1250HP. In this versions this fighters were valid alternatives to the A6M and Ki-43, but not really a generation ahead.
Not having the Ki-43 and the A6M, that were highly competitive fighters up to early 1943, would have been a total disaster for the Japanese, akin to the RAF using Gladiators until the Tempest and Griffon powered Spitfire were ready.
... which would also beg the question... "how the hell would you even get from a Gladiator to a Spitfire MK XII or Tempest?" without assistance from a helpful ASB? :p
 
HOW DARE YOU ASSUME THAT THE GLORIOUS IJN WOULD BOW DOWN AND BEG PLANES FROM THOSE SCUMS IN THE ARMY!!!! COMMIT SEPPUKKU NOW!!!

On a more serious note, the answer to your question could be summed up in this a single sentence: The greatest foe of the Imperial Japanese Army is the Imperial Japanese Navy and vice versa, they were backed by old and powerful samurai families who had beef with each other for a very very long time. Imagine the Valois vs. Plantagenet but 10 times worse, you cannot seriously asked them to share a platform because even they have different requirements for aircraft. Inter-service rivalry was a different kind of animal in Imperial Japan.

For further information:
The N1/2K-J Violet Lightning was a Navy land based fighter, it wasn't an Army aircraft. It started has a float plane, then they took the pontoons off, and made it a land based fighter. But yes your right, the hostility between the army & navy was the worst inter service rivalry of any of the major powers in WWII. I think the Heer, and the Waffen SS got along better. The Japanese were fighting two barely coordinated war efforts, when Japan couldn't afford that kind of inefficiency. The idea of using a theater command system like the Allies had, with admirals, commanding army troops in one area, and generals commanding naval forces in another would never have even been tried by the Japanese. Then when you throw in the civilian ministries controlling their own shipping, and you have a real chaotic mess.
 

Throwing a spanner in the works . . . .

Would license producing this baby help?

Much obliged!
Only introduced in Germany August 1941, so same problem of not being available in the crucial early 1942 period.

The fixed U/C fighters in question will need some nip & tuck in order to remain worthwhile. Adoption of retractble U/C is one of these steps. Eg. in Finland, such modified Fokker XXIs gained 'between 17 and 35 km/h' (link), or 10-22 mph. If we can get 15 mph in average, that is a Ki-27 doing 292+15= 307 mph. Not bad when compared with 1st Ki-43s that were doing 310 mph. Less drag will also improve the range a bit (it was 1000+ miles with a drop tank per OTL on the Ki-27).
A5M was slower, partially due to it not having the closed cockpit. So we'd want to rectify that, while also making retractable U/C.

For the fighters with powerful engines - the Ki-44 with a bit bigger wing is my bet for the Army, while Mitsubishi might be doing a carrier-borne fighter around the Kasei, with folding wings and butterfly flaps instead the J2M.
Not having Nakajima making 3 different Army fighters in 1941-1944 in the same factory might get more fighters in total. Have Kawanishi also making the Mitsubishi's fighter under licence.
You might be able to get near-Ki-43-I performance out of the Ki-27, but you're not going to be able to get near-A6M2 performance out of the A5M, mostly because the A6M2 was a higher-performance machine than the Ki-43-I. The A6M also throws on better range and, the big difference between it and the Ki-43, much better armament.

As for Nakajima production... er, which three fighters are you talking about? The Ki-61 was a Kawasaki product. The other Nakajima products being made were the B5N torpedo bomber and Ki-49 medium bomber.
 

Throwing a spanner in the works . . . .

Would license producing this baby help?

Much obliged!
Or the Fiat G.55/56.

Fiat G.56[edit]​


Fiat G.56
The Fiat G.56 was essentially a Fiat G.55 with a larger German Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine. Two prototypes were built, flight tests starting in March 1944.[12] On 30 March, Commander Valentino Cus reached speeds of 690/700 km/h (430/440 mph).[19] Official maximum speed was 685 km/h (426 mph) and the aircraft was armed with three 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon, one firing through the propeller hub, the other two installed in the wings.[20] Performance was excellent, the aircraft proving superior to both the Bf 109K and Bf 109G and Fw 190A, outmaneuvering [2] all types in testing. Production, however, was not allowed by the German authorities.[12]

The problem would be the difficulty the Japanese had in producing high performance engines.
 
The fixed U/C fighters in question will need some nip & tuck in order to remain worthwhile. Adoption of retractble U/C is one of these steps. Eg. in Finland, such modified Fokker XXIs gained 'between 17 and 35 km/h' (link), or 10-22 mph. If we can get 15 mph in average, that is a Ki-27 doing 292+15= 307 mph. Not bad when compared with 1st Ki-43s that were doing 310 mph. Less drag will also improve the range a bit (it was 1000+ miles with a drop tank per OTL on the Ki-27).
A5M was slower, partially due to it not having the closed cockpit. So we'd want to rectify that, while also making retractable U/C.
The thing is making those changes does away with your pod as you end up with the Oscar and Zero anyway, just with worse armament.
 
Or the Fiat G.55/56.

Fiat G.56[edit]​


Fiat G.56
The Fiat G.56 was essentially a Fiat G.55 with a larger German Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine. Two prototypes were built, flight tests starting in March 1944.[12] On 30 March, Commander Valentino Cus reached speeds of 690/700 km/h (430/440 mph).[19] Official maximum speed was 685 km/h (426 mph) and the aircraft was armed with three 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon, one firing through the propeller hub, the other two installed in the wings.[20] Performance was excellent, the aircraft proving superior to both the Bf 109K and Bf 109G and Fw 190A, outmaneuvering [2] all types in testing. Production, however, was not allowed by the German authorities.[12]

The problem would be the difficulty the Japanese had in producing high performance engines.
According to the Luftwaffe pilots, the G.55, C.205, and Re.2005 were all excellent aircraft - just too few and too late, fortunately for the RAF and USAAF over Italy...
 
Throwing a spanner in the works . . . .​

Would license producing this baby help?

Much obliged!

Could not agree more. Stick the Japanese tidbits (engine, guns, gauges, radio) and press on.

You might be able to get near-Ki-43-I performance out of the Ki-27, but you're not going to be able to get near-A6M2 performance out of the A5M, mostly because the A6M2 was a higher-performance machine than the Ki-43-I. The A6M also throws on better range and, the big difference between it and the Ki-43, much better armament.

As for Nakajima production... er, which three fighters are you talking about? The Ki-61 was a Kawasaki product. The other Nakajima products being made were the B5N torpedo bomber and Ki-49 medium bomber.

1941: Ki-27, Ki-43, start of production of Ki-44 (5 delivered in summer)
1942: Ki-27, Ki-43, Ki-44
1943: Ki-43, Ki-44, start of production of Ki-84 (25 delivered, 1st in August)
1944: Ki-43 (last delivered in September), Ki-44 (last 2 delivered in January 1945), Ki-84
Nakajima was making Navy aircraft in a separate factory vs. the factory where Army aircraft were being produced. Each factory making 4-5 aircraft types respectively, in a given year of ww2. Similar situation was with Mitsubishi.

I agree that A5M will be needing more investment to bring it to the levels of capability the A6M2 offered. Probably the Zuisei in the nose (also cuts the frontal area), fuel tank behind the pilot, and a pair of extra guns in the wings.
 
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