There is a difference between a group of people getting together and defending themselves and the "Militia". It is two very distinct entities with different responsibilities both civil, military, and in legal matters. Legally you can defend your self, but if you just decide to shoot into the bushes without knowing what is there and kill the local neighbor you are in legal jeopardy. If you are in the Militia or military unit and shoot into the bushes you are covered because of the military necessity of that because you are defending the area.
Japanese attack on US Mainland
- Thread starter njslim
- Start date
And i. am sure that someone s going yo worry about the legalities of who/what a militia is/was while the Japanese are marching around blowing up building and killing and or assaulting people.
This is literally the definition of picking fly do do out of pepper,
And NOBODY either side is going to care what you call them. You are still going to get groups forming to protect themselves from raidds once the knowledge gets around the the Japanese are performing raids. And odds are either the state of the Feds will sacntion these groups but legal sanction or no legal sanction these groups will form.
I can see a group of guys sitting around in the bushes watching the Japanese burn their homes and businesses and assault and kill thier friends family and neighbors and they all say.. “well i would like to defend myslef amd my home and my family, bust gosh darn it my lawyer syas i cant legally do so or i will be held responsble in court. so there is. otbing i can do but surrender. and let them kill my kids and wife and myself…”
Sorry this is going to be beside the point. People were not obsessed with lawyers back then. I don't think anyone worried if the Minet men n 1770s was legal or not. “gee i would love to form a militia with you to defend ourselves from the Redcoats but King George says that is against the law so i cant....”
This is literally the definition of picking fly do do out of pepper,
And NOBODY either side is going to care what you call them. You are still going to get groups forming to protect themselves from raidds once the knowledge gets around the the Japanese are performing raids. And odds are either the state of the Feds will sacntion these groups but legal sanction or no legal sanction these groups will form.
I can see a group of guys sitting around in the bushes watching the Japanese burn their homes and businesses and assault and kill thier friends family and neighbors and they all say.. “well i would like to defend myslef amd my home and my family, bust gosh darn it my lawyer syas i cant legally do so or i will be held responsble in court. so there is. otbing i can do but surrender. and let them kill my kids and wife and myself…”
Sorry this is going to be beside the point. People were not obsessed with lawyers back then. I don't think anyone worried if the Minet men n 1770s was legal or not. “gee i would love to form a militia with you to defend ourselves from the Redcoats but King George says that is against the law so i cant....”
Yamamoto said exactly what would happen.
They also chose one of the absolute worst places in the U.S. to attack.
Not only is there Camp Pendleton, there is also the MRC San Diego, Camp Mathews, North Island, San Diego Naval Base, Camp Lockett (11th Cav), Camp Callan (6,000 troops, artillery training center) and the local National Guard Armories, plus, as mentioned law enforcement that is extremely well armed (militarized U.S. law enforcement isn't a 21st Century concept) along with a few hundred thousand member of the local gentry with everything from Grandad's Cap & Ball pistols all the way to BAR (civilian hunting variants.
Biggest, and worst, impact will be the massacre of Japanese civilians in the region by locals "huntin' for Japs"
The fact that even the already vastly overconfident Japanese General Staff didn't even consider this sort of thing rather speaks to the concept.
NOTE: It it critical to also consider the Japanese "end game". As ignorant as the General Staff appeared, even the most racist and nationalistic didn't believe that the Empire could prevail in. a war of attrition against the Americans. The goal was a flash knockdown, followed by the establishment of defensive perimeter that would present a barrier that would be too costly for the Anglo-Americans to fight through. The Empire would then be able to negotiate from a position of strength, perhaps pay indemnities for losses and make purchases of territory.
The Japanese were trying to conduct a classic 19th Century Colonial War. Sending suicide troops to slaughter civilians in the enemy homeland simply to do it wasn't part of the game plan.
They also chose one of the absolute worst places in the U.S. to attack.
Not only is there Camp Pendleton, there is also the MRC San Diego, Camp Mathews, North Island, San Diego Naval Base, Camp Lockett (11th Cav), Camp Callan (6,000 troops, artillery training center) and the local National Guard Armories, plus, as mentioned law enforcement that is extremely well armed (militarized U.S. law enforcement isn't a 21st Century concept) along with a few hundred thousand member of the local gentry with everything from Grandad's Cap & Ball pistols all the way to BAR (civilian hunting variants.
Biggest, and worst, impact will be the massacre of Japanese civilians in the region by locals "huntin' for Japs"
The fact that even the already vastly overconfident Japanese General Staff didn't even consider this sort of thing rather speaks to the concept.
NOTE: It it critical to also consider the Japanese "end game". As ignorant as the General Staff appeared, even the most racist and nationalistic didn't believe that the Empire could prevail in. a war of attrition against the Americans. The goal was a flash knockdown, followed by the establishment of defensive perimeter that would present a barrier that would be too costly for the Anglo-Americans to fight through. The Empire would then be able to negotiate from a position of strength, perhaps pay indemnities for losses and make purchases of territory.
The Japanese were trying to conduct a classic 19th Century Colonial War. Sending suicide troops to slaughter civilians in the enemy homeland simply to do it wasn't part of the game plan.
Flash Knockdown? Negotiate from a position of strength? That reasoning would be absolutely batsh$#*t insane, and even Yamamoto's reasoning would be pale. If Japanese terrorist attacks occurred against unarmed U.S. civilians, on U.S. mainland soil, Halsey's statement, “Before we’re through with ‘em, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell.” will come to pass. Look at what happened when the geniuses attacked a far flung military target that most Americans didn't even recognize as being part of the U.S.
Again, any takers in speculating this would endanger the "Germany First" policy?
I don't buy it. Genocide as payment for a few hundred deaths makes no sense. It's a far worse degree of madness than Japan attacking Pearl Harbour.
Oh, the Japanese leadership was delusional.
They expected to literally fight the same sort of war that the British/French/Spanish/Dutch had fought over bits and pieces of North America in the 18th/19th Century. They didn't actually come out and say it, but they looked, as an example, at China as being simply a matter of Japan replacing the other colonial empire that had been draining China for the last 200 years. Singapore, Malaya, the DEI, the Philippines were all simply colonies of the West, and they would simply replace them as landlord, not unlike the U.S. in the Mexican War (right down to paying an indemnity). The U.S. was clearly not interesting in holding the Philippines and Guam wasn't a major U.S. colony so some sort of fiction is agreed to at the end of the war; where the Philippines are still granted "Independence" but with the Japanese actually pulling the strings, and Tokyo buying Guam*.
They simply failed to understand that the sort of colonial war they wanted to fight died in Flanders and that the Americans had never thought that they were a colonial power, but WOULD react like a hornet's nest if you disturb it.
*The U.S. had acquired both places as part of the Spanish-American war only 43 years ago, so it was really simply a matter of trading ownership.
The Japanese purpose in this scenario is to damage American morale
"My god , these people are batcrap crazy sending over a suicide squad" "We dont want to fight them!"
To draw resources away from the western Pacific to defend the American mainland and allow Japan to complete it conquest in the area
Undoubtedly that will work very well with the overall Japanese war plan, especially wasting a number of SNLF, that required them to use forces for multiple operations in different parts of the theater without even pausing to refit (e.g. 48th Division took part in the invasion of the Philippines, transferred roughly a month later to the DEI, where it was used as part of the conquest of Java, then moved to Timor where it fought to clear the island of Allied resistance for the rest of the year).
The Japanese were on a shoestring and didn't have SNLF to toss away. Perhaps most importantly, the Japanese didn't formally embrace suicide tactics until the introduction of the Kamikaze. in late 1944. Prior to that time the "Banzai Charge" was simply the exact sort of human wave attack that marked WW I (the IJA had minimal exposure to the realities of "modern warfare, their previous major action having been in 1905) with similar results combined with a culturally developed unwillingness to surrender leading to futile combat after all was lost on islands where there was no hope of retreat (where the Japanese could withdraw, notably at Guadalcanal where they managed to evacuate over 10,000 personnel).
The Japanese had already, as part of their initial planning isolated all American forces West of Hawaii. The IJN WANTED the damaged USN to advance toward the Philippines in January of 1942, indeed they longed for the Decisive Battle where they could replicate Tsushima and win the war in a day. Every Japanese graduate of Eta Jima had been trained to belive, as a matter of faith, that the Decisive Battle would take place, almost certainly in or near the Taiwan Strait.
Spherical_light
Kicked
I think, if you look back over history, especially initially with most of the conflicts. It will be a case of using what worked for victories in the previous war at first; then as losses start rising, usually one would start adapting counters to various actions....
Usually...
France was fighting in WW1 with the 1870 conflict in mind; then fighting in WW2 with WW1 in mind. That did not work well in either case...
I don't know about land excursions, but I did have a thought about an alternate scenario where the KB goes for SD from the south. And before anyone asks me what I've been imbibing, I realize it would not be necessarily doable without a great deal of luck and an extremely expensive use of resources... Not to mention other problems that I'm sure others would mention....
I'm kind of skeptical about any sort of amphibious raid by the IJN on mainland US, its about on par with risk involved with bombing..... And Yamamoto certainly knew that waking the giant was a bad idea, but his idea of a hard decisive blow was the best that he could come up with considering the situation.
Usually...
France was fighting in WW1 with the 1870 conflict in mind; then fighting in WW2 with WW1 in mind. That did not work well in either case...
I don't know about land excursions, but I did have a thought about an alternate scenario where the KB goes for SD from the south. And before anyone asks me what I've been imbibing, I realize it would not be necessarily doable without a great deal of luck and an extremely expensive use of resources... Not to mention other problems that I'm sure others would mention....
I'm kind of skeptical about any sort of amphibious raid by the IJN on mainland US, its about on par with risk involved with bombing..... And Yamamoto certainly knew that waking the giant was a bad idea, but his idea of a hard decisive blow was the best that he could come up with considering the situation.
I think it has parallels with attacking the Panama canal. It could provide added disruption and inconvenience, even if not very successful (as long as it was noticed). So it would help buy time to control and protect the outer defensive ring - though probably not by much - but would cost resources they badly needed elsewhere, thus slowing their own progress.
So not necessarily a stupid idea, but hard to make it worthwhile.
The problem with tgis any pretty much any if the Japanese attempts to “distract” the US and its allies by attacking someplace such as Panama, of raiding the US mainland or Austrailia etc is that the US had a LOT more resources so it could much more easily “afford” these distractions then Japan could. It is similar to the argument that most if not all German “V“ weapons and ither advanced weapons systems hurt Germany.
A suicide strike in California was apparently actually considered in late 1944 by a group of Japanese naval officers led by Daiji Yamaoka. They were proposing transporting 300 chosen men on submarines across the Pacific and landing in Santa Barbara, where they would then try to shoot their way into Los Angeles via Santa Monica and then do as much killing and destruction of the Douglas and Lockheed aircraft factories as possible before they were killed. This plan was however halted in May 1945 when they decided to target the Mariana Islands instead.
Of course this was, as you note, in late 1944, when the Japanese were desperate to even slow down the juggernaut they had unleashed upon themselves, not when they actually thought their war plans would work.
My thoughts exactly... '1941' may not be that far off what would happen in such an ATL...
Some of the great one liners...
"Jesus Herb, the Dummy's right!"
"One gen-u-ine American Made Hari Kari knife! Pass it around boys, maybe some of ya' have a use for it!"
This isnt the state of California, its the state of insanity....... uttered by Robert Stack as General Vinegar Joe Stilwell
Ned Beatty manning an AA cannon and sacrificing his home in order to engage a Japanese sub was good, but my favorite was Capt. Wild Bill Kelso, "Fill 'er up. Ethyl!"
Kinda late to the discussion but since the necro banner isn't there yet, here goes.
Americans are still angry about Pearl Harbor. An impractical Japanese raid would see all Japanese soldiers/SNLF get wiped out after they lose all their ammo, supplies, or their escape vehicle. I don't think the American people will be keen on taking prisoners (heck the IJA/IJN considered surrender as "disgraceful"). I'd imagine all Japanese KIA would be hanged on a lampost with a signboard that says a racial slur that would be used as propaganda.
Plus, this is the early 1940s. America was probably still in the Mobster Era. The Roaring 20's Vibe did reach up until 1947.
The Japanese will face these guys: (along with any police and FBI agents armed with similar weapons because of mobsters in the Prohibition Era).
After the Japanese crippled the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor and capture Guam, Wake, and the Philippines (essentially holding these places hostage), the diehards thought America will be forced to enter negotiations with terms favorable to Tokyo.
How wrong they were.
Americans are still angry about Pearl Harbor. An impractical Japanese raid would see all Japanese soldiers/SNLF get wiped out after they lose all their ammo, supplies, or their escape vehicle. I don't think the American people will be keen on taking prisoners (heck the IJA/IJN considered surrender as "disgraceful"). I'd imagine all Japanese KIA would be hanged on a lampost with a signboard that says a racial slur that would be used as propaganda.
Plus, this is the early 1940s. America was probably still in the Mobster Era. The Roaring 20's Vibe did reach up until 1947.
The Japanese will face these guys: (along with any police and FBI agents armed with similar weapons because of mobsters in the Prohibition Era).
To sum it up, the Japanese military command thought the Americans will not want to fight a war far from its own shores. The Japanese were thinking America would remain as isolationist post-WWI as it was in the 1930s. It was still reeling from the Great Depression. Plus, the USS Panay incident in December 1937 fueled a movement in the U.S. to pull out what soldiers, marines, and sailors away from China. Seeing that China was a distant land away far from America's own problems in the 1930s.
After the Japanese crippled the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor and capture Guam, Wake, and the Philippines (essentially holding these places hostage), the diehards thought America will be forced to enter negotiations with terms favorable to Tokyo.
How wrong they were.
As noted elsewhere on thread, most towns of any size in California had National Guard armories with somewhat too adequately trained Guardsmen and modern weaponry (Springfields, BARs, and Browning machine guns if different flavors). The constabulary were well armed as well. The local armed citizens might have been more of a nuisance to all concerned in a real battle but would be have been significant to a small Japanese detachment of several dozen men.
All true, but the first armed resistance the Japanese raiders encounter is likely to be from groups of local and state police assisted by hastily deputized armed citizens, making the incident an "unorganized militia" action. The militia action would locate and pin down the raiders, giving National Guard (and possibly some active U.S. military) units time to organize, engage and eliminate the threat.