Fuck ethnic nationalism, fuck religious nationalism. Keep everything within Ottoman borders as one country and make it a democratic republic.
Ideal Middle Eastern Borders
- Thread starter Vingilótë
- Start date
The Ottoman are kinda overrrated to me. Nationalism does have a point at times, and the empire is seen maybe with rosey glass - the christians and other minorities would one day have enough to be not-soi-egal-tolerated.
It remained an empire, based on Sunni islam, and turkish cuture.
-A united Kurdish state in the majority Kurd areas of Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria.
-Iranian Azerbaijan to Azerbaijan
-Independence of Baluchistan
-Cyprus annexed by Greece
-That Arab sliver of Turkey going to Syria
Either:
-Israel and the Palestinian territories united into a single bi-national state, secular, with equal rights for Jews and Arabs, co-existing with a united Arab state
OR
-A united Arab state (also secular) comprising Egypt, Israel/Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Oman, the Gulf states, Lebanon. Administered either from Egypt or one of the Mashriqi states.
OR
-A united Mashriqi state; a united Arabia (Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain) that's not Wahhabi (preferably equal rights for Sunni and Shia, but it'll probably be Sunni-oriented); Egypt that includes North Sudan.
-Iranian Azerbaijan to Azerbaijan
-Independence of Baluchistan
-Cyprus annexed by Greece
-That Arab sliver of Turkey going to Syria
Either:
-Israel and the Palestinian territories united into a single bi-national state, secular, with equal rights for Jews and Arabs, co-existing with a united Arab state
OR
-A united Arab state (also secular) comprising Egypt, Israel/Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Oman, the Gulf states, Lebanon. Administered either from Egypt or one of the Mashriqi states.
OR
-A united Mashriqi state; a united Arabia (Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain) that's not Wahhabi (preferably equal rights for Sunni and Shia, but it'll probably be Sunni-oriented); Egypt that includes North Sudan.
Are there really still Christian communities of any sort in NW Anatolia?
I assume you mean Southern Cyprus and not the whole island. Anything else would be a bad, bad idea. The reason the Turkish invaded the north in the first place is that some form of ethnic cleansing by the Cypriot Greeks on the Cypriot Turks was looking very likely and neither the Greeks on the mainland or on Cyprus itself were willing to concede to having a Federated State with guaranteed seats and government posts for the Turks and Maronites which is what Turkey and the UK were gunning for.
EDIT: Some cool maps of the Middle East by the EU Commision. The first is a language-families map, the second a ethnic/more detailed language map. Sorry about them being such bad page breakers, if needed I can just edit them to be links.
http://global-atlas.jrc.it/maps/PUBLIC/2139_MidEast_Language_Families_lg.jpg
http://global-atlas.jrc.it/maps/PUBLIC/2133_Mid_East_Ethnic_lg.jpg
EDIT 2: The maps are now in link forum rather than being page breakers.
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1. Because the South Sudanese themselves decided to keep the name South Sudan instead of any of the other proposed names (which did not receive widespread support)
2. Just because Sudan is no longer independent doesn't mean South Sudan has to simply it's name to Sudan. East Timor is still called East Timor despite the rest of Timor not being independent and South Africa is still called South Africa and despite their being no equivalent country of "Africa" or "North Africa" north of it.
A revived Ottoman Empire consisting of Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel+PNA, the Sinai, the Hejaz (all of it), and Kuwait.
Failing that, a Hashemite Kingdom consisting of Jordan + Israel+PNA + Sinai+ Hejaz + Lebanon + the Golan and Jebel Druze (the latter historically tried to get annexed into Jordan so badly before Damascus reasserted itself).
Failing that, a Hashemite Kingdom consisting of Jordan + Israel+PNA + Sinai+ Hejaz + Lebanon + the Golan and Jebel Druze (the latter historically tried to get annexed into Jordan so badly before Damascus reasserted itself).
with realistic borders and political entities
First, Iran and Turkey exactly as they are.
Second, with Lebanon as it is, without the hard core Sunni/Shia regions in the North-East. This would be mostly democratic with the assistance of France, US, Israel, and Turkey.
Third, an Alawite state on the coast above Lebanon ... call it Syria.
Kurdistan in the Kurdish regions of Northern Iraq and present day Syria. Imperfect democracy with the two ruling families/clans vying for power ala modern-day Greece.
Everything left over in Syrai (mostly Sunni/Shia regions hemmed in by Lebanon/Kurdistan/Israel/Turkey/Iraq/Jordan woud likely need to be divided and either absorbed into Iraq, Jordan or some other, new state(s).
Israel from the River to the Sea. Democracy.
Jordan renamed Palestine and the end of the transplanted monarch. Would be a disfunctional democracy because (a) present day palestinian politics are disfunctional and divided, and (b) after getting a state of their own, the world would cease caring about the Palestinians and stop giving them the mountains of money they have been.
Iraq might break up into a Shia part and a Sunni part.
First, Iran and Turkey exactly as they are.
Second, with Lebanon as it is, without the hard core Sunni/Shia regions in the North-East. This would be mostly democratic with the assistance of France, US, Israel, and Turkey.
Third, an Alawite state on the coast above Lebanon ... call it Syria.
Kurdistan in the Kurdish regions of Northern Iraq and present day Syria. Imperfect democracy with the two ruling families/clans vying for power ala modern-day Greece.
Everything left over in Syrai (mostly Sunni/Shia regions hemmed in by Lebanon/Kurdistan/Israel/Turkey/Iraq/Jordan woud likely need to be divided and either absorbed into Iraq, Jordan or some other, new state(s).
Israel from the River to the Sea. Democracy.
Jordan renamed Palestine and the end of the transplanted monarch. Would be a disfunctional democracy because (a) present day palestinian politics are disfunctional and divided, and (b) after getting a state of their own, the world would cease caring about the Palestinians and stop giving them the mountains of money they have been.
Iraq might break up into a Shia part and a Sunni part.
If it all goes pear-shaped (mushroom-shaped?) there's always "Empire of Nukistan, population three or four"
I always "Gah" when someone mentions a united Kurdish state. They're pretty diverse themselves, you know - Sunni, Shia, Christians, Jews, and the traditional Kurdish religion are all represented amongst that population.
Just have it as one big federation, as part of the united world government!
Just have it as one big federation, as part of the united world government!
I know that Alaska is the stereotypical choice thanks to Michael Chabon's The Yiddish Policemen's Union and the Slattery Report but I've been pondering how to get a Jewish majority state farther out west in one of the US Mountain/Southwest states. General start would be no Balfour Declaration, which obviously means the principles of it won't be included in the Treaty of Sevres and the set-up for Mandatory Palestine, and then the British decide it's easier to stop mass Jewish immigration to keep the locals happy than potentially open that can of worms. The trick is getting the US to let them all turn up, thinking perhaps as a condition they have to settle in certain areas to help boost the population.
Err, why? Assuming you mean East Thrace since Greece already has Western Thrace even before the population swaps the area had a Turkish plurality and almost a majority, likewise as others have mentioned Cyprus had a large Turkish population. Readily agreeing to a Middle East with borders drawn up along ethnic and religious lines but then just chucking these two in with Greece seems rather odd to me.
With a POD of WWI, I assume there would still be time for the large population exchanges like OTL. Both had far larger Greek populations at the time, Cyprus has a Greek plurality to this day, possession of both with give Greece more economic stability, the Greek Monarchy more stability, thus sparing it from overthrow/fascism, and with Constantinople, we could see a revived Byzantine Empire