How does Spain being an Axis power impact the war?

[ahmedali]

Not only is it not called Operation Overlord but the notion that Spain in the Axis would somehow make Operation Sealion (well acknowledged to be nigh impossible, there's an entire thread devoted to collecting Sealion discussions) viable is a bit ludicrous. No Spanish gold? Perhaps it was the case in the 1500s but Europe was not reliant on Spanish bullion in the Second World War.

Did anyone mention the sea lion now

I say without the Spanish gold, the Soviets are weaker without it

 

[ahmedali]

That is a grossly inaccurate over-simplification.

Spain is still rural and the monarchy is popular there (the royalists won everywhere but the main cities).

And Greece restored the monarchy by referendum, so even Spain will

 

[nbcman]

Man, this thread just woke up....

Anyway, I think that an Axis Spain would be interesting to think of some stuff as to how it would affect the war.

I don't think Spain will affect the war that much. Sure, Spanish gold may not go to the Soviet Union, but they still had a strong army. And they could also order soldiers to join the army. Sure, guns need money, but hands don't. Still, it may make the soviets back down a little, but they still may win Operation Barbarossa. Sure, they may also not get land from Finland. Spain's only real uses for the Axis are gold, men, and Gibraltar. Don't get me wrong, Gibraltar was really important in the war, as with it, Britain had a secure entrance to the Mediterranean, and Italy had no access to the Atlantic. Even if Africa falls to the Allies in this world, Italy can still send their navy through Gibraltar with ease. Sure, Italy's navy was nothing compared to Britannia, but still. A naval distraction in the Bay of Biscay or anywhere else in the Atlantic, causing a need to relocate some ships to fight, could be the perfect opportunity for Operation Overlord (that is what it was called, right?), where Germany invades the British Isles. When Britain is knocked out, Germany, Italy and Spain could turn their eyes to the Soviets, already weakened from no Spanish gold, and maybe even the Winter War, as well as the Great Purge, a joint-axis assault on the Union would most likely take down the Soviet Union. With that, Germany could send assistance to Japan in China by land. Once China is dealt with, Japan attacks America, and then the Axis and Japan could take down America with their bases in Canada being used as a staging ground.
Okay, now I think it could make a difference.

You may want to look at the balance of naval forces in the summer of 1940 both in the Mediterranean and in the Atlantic before you make claims that there would be 'the perfect opportunity' for the USM. Plus if there was no Spanish gold received by the Soviets, there were no Soviet munitions or troops sent to Spain to be consumed / lost either. So there's not much of a change there beyond the loss of the experience in the SCW which impacts both sides (Germany/Italy & the Soviets).

 

[Catsmate]

Spain is still rural and the monarchy is popular there (the royalists won everywhere but the main cities).

And Greece restored the monarchy by referendum, so even Spain will

As you are fully aware, I was commenting on your grossly inaccurate over-simplification that all the Republicans were communists. Perhaps you could study the war, and it's background, in more detail.

 

[ahmedali]

As you are fully aware, I was commenting on your grossly inaccurate over-simplification that all the Republicans were communists. Perhaps you could study the war, and it's background, in more detail.

In fact, the most prominent Republican faction, the Spanish Popular Front, was dominated by the Communists during the war, although it appeared to be a center-left party.

In addition, the Soviet Union provided aid to the Republican forces and the Republicans smuggled Spanish gold to the Soviet Union

As well as the International Brigades that supported the Republicans, most of them are Communists

So you are wrong

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

And the Republicans were communists

Umm no. The Communists were a very important part of the Republican forces, both politically and militarily, but most Republicans were not Communists. There was a large faction of anarchosyndicalists, there were Catalonian autonomists who weren't even particularly left-wing, and there was the "Republican Left" party, a/k/a the "middle-class left", who were motivated by anti-clericalism and anti-monarchism, but had no interest in socialism. This last group included Manuel Azaña, the President of the Republic.

The Communists expertly embedded themselves in the Republic's power structure and military command (unlike the anarchosyndicalists, who were easily outmaneuvered), and liquidated their Trotskyite rivals (the POUM). By 1939, their influence alarmed even their fellow Republicans. In fact, when the remaining Republican forces decided to surrender in 1939, they first executed a coup d'état to remove the Communists in the government. Historian Stanley Payne has noted that the Spanish Civil War began with a revolt of the army of the Republic against excessive Communist influence in the government, and ended with... a revolt of the army of the Republic against excessive Communist influence in the government.

So no monarchy will be restored

The Nationalists were nominally monarchists, but they had no particular liking for the pretender Juan de Barcelona. Franco announced the restoration of the monarchy in 1947, but refused to allow Juan to be crowned. And the Republicans were nearly all anti-monarchist. If however Spain is liberated by US/UK forces, Juan might try to play a pro-Allied role and parlay that into a possible restoration.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Nah. The Pyrenees just seem to rule that out. A near impassible, easily defended mountain range would make a Spanish invasion a pointless side trip. You could fight your way through Spain and end up stopped dead at the Mountains.

The Pyrenees are a very narrow mountain range, and their "impassibility" has not been tested since the Napoleonic era. Are they more impassible than the Carpathians (breached by the Soviet army in fall 1944)? Or the Appenines (breached by US forces in 1945)? Also, there is open ground at each end, near the sea.

Breaking through could be difficult, but would it be more difficult than an invasion over undeveloped beaches? The OTL strategy for OVERLORD required enormous preparations for the landings, was at unavoidable risk of disaster due to weather, and was crippled in follow-on operations by the limitations of over-the-beach supply.

 

[ahmedali]

Umm no. The Communists were a very important part of the Republican forces, both politically and militarily, but most Republicans were not Communists. There was a large faction of anarchosyndicalists, there were Catalonian autonomists who weren't even particularly left-wing, and there was the "Republican Left" party, a/k/a the "middle-class left", who were motivated by anti-clericalism and anti-monarchism, but had no interest in socialism. This last group included Manuel Azaña, the President of the Republic.

The Communists expertly embedded themselves in the Republic's power structure and military command (unlike the anarchosyndicalists, who were easily outmaneuvered), and liquidated their Trotskyite rivals (the POUM). By 1939, their influence alarmed even their fellow Republicans. In fact, when the remaining Republican forces decided to surrender in 1939, they first executed a coup d'état to remove the Communists in the government. Historian Stanley Payne has noted that the Spanish Civil War began with a revolt of the army of the Republic against excessive Communist influence in the government, and ended with... a revolt of the army of the Republic against excessive Communist influence in the government.

The Nationalists were nominally monarchists, but they had no particular liking for the pretender Juan de Barcelona. Franco announced the restoration of the monarchy in 1947, but refused to allow Juan to be crowned. And the Republicans were nearly all anti-monarchist. If however Spain is liberated by US/UK forces, Juan might try to play a pro-Allied role and parlay that into a possible restoration.

Despite this, they were still stigmatized as communists, so the Allies would not trust them

So the Allies would probably be drawn to Juan, Duke of Barcelona

Therefore, the restoration will take place and may encourage a similar situation in Austria, Germany and Portugal, and may lead to Italy remaining a monarchy.

 

[wcv215]

Did anyone mention the sea lion now

The post he was responding too. Specifically this bit:

“A naval distraction in the Bay of Biscay or anywhere else in the Atlantic, causing a need to relocate some ships to fight, could be the perfect opportunity for Operation Overlord (that is what it was called, right?), where Germany invades the British Isles.”

 

[DG Valdron]

The Pyrenees are a very narrow mountain range, and their "impassibility" has not been tested since the Napoleonic era. Are they more impassible than the Carpathians (breached by the Soviet army in fall 1944)? Or the Appenines (breached by US forces in 1945)? Also, there is open ground at each end, near the sea.

Well, to start with, by the time the Red Army reached the Carpathians, the German Army was seriously on the back foot and falling apart, and the Soviets were advancing with incredible numbers along an extremely broad front literally from the Black Sea to the Baltics.

In contrast, the purported Spanish invasion is going to be a sea landing which will itself be a logistical bottleneck, having to fight through contested Spain, and then confront another bottleneck at the Pyrenees. And then fight their way through France. This really does seem to be the arse end way of doing things. In real history, the invasion of Italy turned out to be a bloody futile affair, fighting up a peninsula through a series of fortified lines. I think a Spanish invasion would just be even more futile.

Breaking through could be difficult, but would it be more difficult than an invasion over undeveloped beaches? The OTL strategy for OVERLORD required enormous preparations for the landings, was at unavoidable risk of disaster due to weather, and was crippled in follow-on operations by the limitations of over-the-beach supply.

I don't see a sea landing invasion in Spain would be all that much of an improvement. Basically, same level of enormous preparation and risk, for rather less benefits.

 

[James Ricker]

Franco just won his civil war, ⅔of the country doesn't like him
Restarting the civil war wouldn't be to difficult for the Allies to do
Germany would have to divert men and resources to prop up the Spanish government, resources desperately needed in the East.
Spain would be a bigger liability than Italy

 

[Catsmate]

In fact, the most prominent Republican faction, the Spanish Popular Front, was dominated by the Communists during the war, although it appeared to be a center-left party.

In addition, the Soviet Union provided aid to the Republican forces and the Republicans smuggled Spanish gold to the Soviet Union

As well as the International Brigades that supported the Republicans, most of them are Communists

So you are wrong

A little pointless now but:
1. Not actually relevant to what I said.
2. Yes, so what?
3. Untrue.