How culturally similar were the middle-colonies?

New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Delaware are often grouped as the "middle colonies", but I'd like to get people's views on how culturally similar they really were. I'm interested in this both before and after the ARW, for the 1750-1850 period.

In some timelines New York is often grouped more with New England, based on trade links, but I wonder if that is too much based on New York City. I would have thought upstate New York would have had a lot of similarity to Pennsylvania, but I don't really know. What was Philadelphia's economy most like?

There's also the aspect that these colonies were more ethnically diverse than other places, but it seemed it was more Dutch in New York and more German in Pennsylvania. How well did these groups get on?

Finally, Delaware was a slave state with powerful ruling families. Surely this is more similar to Virginia than New York?
 
New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Delaware are often grouped as the "middle colonies", but I'd like to get people's views on how culturally similar they really were. I'm interested in this both before and after the ARW, for the 1750-1850 period.

In some timelines New York is often grouped more with New England, based on trade links, but I wonder if that is too much based on New York City. I would have thought upstate New York would have had a lot of similarity to Pennsylvania, but I don't really know. What was Philadelphia's economy most like?

There's also the aspect that these colonies were more ethnically diverse than other places, but it seemed it was more Dutch in New York and more German in Pennsylvania. How well did these groups get on?

Finally, Delaware was a slave state with powerful ruling families. Surely this is more similar to Virginia than New York?

Delaware was originally part of Pennsylvania (it was the same family in both IIRC), and West Jersey had a lot in common with Penn. as well. East Jersey was closer to New York.
 
Delaware was originally part of Pennsylvania (it was the same family in both IIRC), and West Jersey had a lot in common with Penn. as well. East Jersey was closer to New York.

Yes, in the early days, but I think it evolved in a very different direction.
 
New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Delaware are often grouped as the "middle colonies", but I'd like to get people's views on how culturally similar they really were. I'm interested in this both before and after the ARW, for the 1750-1850 period.

In some timelines New York is often grouped more with New England, based on trade links, but I wonder if that is too much based on New York City. I would have thought upstate New York would have had a lot of similarity to Pennsylvania, but I don't really know. What was Philadelphia's economy most like?

In terms of their interests and economics it is very, very reasonable to link the middle colonies as a single group. Yet they did not engage in cooperation in the same way the New England colonies did nor share the same sense of shared interests that developed by the 1820s in the Deep South. This is just because of the factor you note: culture.

New York had a substantial and (being urban) influential Dutch population. As much of a factor was its ongoing and long relationship with the Iroquois. In it's early history it was outright dependent on it, a fact that made the New York attitude to native issues and paganism in general dramatically different to its neighbors. Like East Jersey, New York had a background in slavery unparalleled in the colonies, in both disproportionately used in urban and semi-urban settings and higher by percentage of county population than anywhere in the northern colonies. It's heavy use was responsible the New York and New Jersey dates of abolition falling 15 and 20 years after the rest of the "free" states. Upstate New York, though, was colonized partially by New Englanders, meaning that it differed quite a bit culturally from the lower Hudson. Hence the Vermont secession.

All-in-all, New York's culture was closest of the Middle Atlantic states to that of New England. But in truth it was relatively singular, with East Jersey being the only place that was truly equivalent.

There's also the aspect that these colonies were more ethnically diverse than other places, but it seemed it was more Dutch in New York and more German in Pennsylvania. How well did these groups get on?

Despite the fact that Germans came to be the larger group, they were not the decisive one in Pennsylvania. The Quakers were. West Jersey and PA shared a Quaker heritage. This was the reason for Pennsylvania being the first to issue a gradual abolition bill, for New Jersey to issue women the vote in 1780, and a host of other unusually progressive legislation (much of which was repealed as both states' cultures acclimatized to and diffused into a general northern standard). In Pennsylvania a large effort was made to invite immigrants who shared the Quaker's egalitarian and pacifist outlook, which is where those Germans came from in the first place. A lot of Welsh came at the same time, but it didn't matter because the English, Scotch-Irish, Scottish, and Germans kept coming, so they were diluted completely a hundred years in. German culture shouldn't be downplayed - Plattsdeutsch is still spoken from central PA to Iowa (if you know where to look) - but in terms of political culture the early Germans followed the Quaker line.

East Jersey differed from Pennsylvania in that it only got the backwash of German immigration from the latter, but no other state links as much to the pair. Even East Jersey had a dramatically different culture, at least early on. Penn's Woods, though, links extremely closely to the general culture of the midwest as far as the Great Plains by virtue of serving as the main conduit for early western settlement. A little off-topic, but worth noting.

Finally, Delaware was a slave state with powerful ruling families. Surely this is more similar to Virginia than New York?

Every colony had powerful ruling families. Delaware was linked to Pennsylvania politically from its outset, and only diverged overtime. Still, it continued to engage in slave state pursuits less intensely than Maryland next door. Maryland, though, is the closest state. Both states shared an agricultural package with Virginia, but were deeply separated from it by their small size, location toward the edge of effective Tobacco country, lack of western land claims, and proportionally stronger fishing and trade economic sectors. Then the Methodist revolution went straight through the pair and tied them very tightly to each other. For a long time the two were essentially Methodist provinces/states, while just across their southern and northern borders the religious mix underwent a sudden shift. Since early Methodism entailed proscriptions and outlooks that set practitioners far apart from contemporary faiths, this is a very big deal.
 
In terms of their interests and economics it is very, very reasonable to link the middle colonies as a single group.

It would be great if you could elucidate on this point further. What interests and economics made it so reasonable to link them?

Yet they did not engage in cooperation in the same way the New England colonies did

Showing my ignorance here further: what co-operation was engaged with here? Do you think the New England colonies would have been more open to being merged into a single colony in this time period (after 1750, assuming no troubles kick off) better than they had previously?

nor share the same sense of shared interests that developed by the 1820s in the Deep South. This is just because of the factor you note: culture.

Usually South Carolina is included in the "deep south", but North Carolina is not. Is this the case for your "sense of shared interests"? If yes, is there a reason Virginia and North Carolina should be excluded?

As much of a factor was its ongoing and long relationship with the Iroquois. In it's early history it was outright dependent on it, a fact that made the New York attitude to native issues and paganism in general dramatically different to its neighbors.

Was it any more tolerant than, say, Pennsylvania? The Quakers seem pretty progessive. It seems impressive that memory of early support stayed on, when so much of the population immigrated more recently.

Upstate New York, though, was colonized partially by New Englanders, meaning that it differed quite a bit culturally from the lower Hudson. Hence the Vermont secession.

Was it just the Vermont area you're talking about here, or other parts of the upstate?

Penn's Woods, though, links extremely closely to the general culture of the midwest as far as the Great Plains by virtue of serving as the main conduit for early western settlement. A little off-topic, but worth noting.

Where is Penn's Woods?

Both states shared an agricultural package with Virginia, but were deeply separated from it by their small size, location toward the edge of effective Tobacco country, lack of western land claims, and proportionally stronger fishing and trade economic sectors.

Presumably tobacco was still the main slave crop though? How far did fishing areas stretch southwards?

Then the Methodist revolution went straight through the pair and tied them very tightly to each other. For a long time the two were essentially Methodist provinces/states, while just across their southern and northern borders the religious mix underwent a sudden shift. Since early Methodism entailed proscriptions and outlooks that set practitioners far apart from contemporary faiths, this is a very big deal.

What made them so ripe for methodism? Which outlooks do you think caused the most separateness?

Apologies for all the questions. When I get an expert on an area I'm researching I like to get everything out I can! If anyone else is reading this, would love to get their views too...
 
It would be great if you could elucidate on this point further. What interests and economics made it so reasonable to link them?

Presumably tobacco was still the main slave crop though? How far did fishing areas stretch southwards?

What made them so ripe for methodism? Which outlooks do you think caused the most separateness?

Apologies for all the questions. When I get an expert on an area I'm researching I like to get everything out I can! If anyone else is reading this, would love to get their views too...

The fishing in MD is all the way south, since it's mainly on the Chesapeake Bay and rivers the flow into it. I might as well note that the lower Potomac* is tidal and very large for much of its length. Even today, there are a handful of Chesapeake watermen although they're dying out with the bay. The Tobacco is also southern/eastern maryland; if I had to give a range out my ass I'd say the eastern shore and Calvert/Charles/Montgomery(kind of borderline; there were tobacco plantations but also a large Quaker community in Sandy Springs)/PG county on the western shore. I don't know enough about north of those. In general, it helps to think of MD more as an east-west thing with tobacco and fishing giving way A as you go west.
*Side note: the dividing line between lower and upper Potomac is in fact pretty much where the tide line is; it's around Georgetown and the river stops being tidal at Little Falls.
 
The fishing in MD is all the way south, since it's mainly on the Chesapeake Bay and rivers the flow into it. I might as well note that the lower Potomac* is tidal and very large for much of its length. Even today, there are a handful of Chesapeake watermen although they're dying out with the bay. The Tobacco is also southern/eastern maryland; if I had to give a range out my ass I'd say the eastern shore and Calvert/Charles/Montgomery(kind of borderline; there were tobacco plantations but also a large Quaker community in Sandy Springs)/PG county on the western shore. I don't know enough about north of those. In general, it helps to think of MD more as an east-west thing with tobacco and fishing giving way A as you go west.
*Side note: the dividing line between lower and upper Potomac is in fact pretty much where the tide line is; it's around Georgetown and the river stops being tidal at Little Falls.

Did the fishing extend down into Virginia and the Carolinas? What industry replaced tobacco as you went West in Maryland?
 
Did the fishing extend down into Virginia and the Carolinas? What industry replaced tobacco as you went West in Maryland?
I don't know very much about either of those but there is certainly fishing on the Virginia coast around Reedville and maybe parts of the Carolina coast. As for what replaced tobacco as you went west, I think mostly wheat and corn, somewhat like the Pennslyvania crop package(and then it turns into Appalachia as you go even farther west, although we don't need to worry about that looking at colonial/ maryland).I don't think that this area was that powerful in the colonial era though; Fredrick wasn't founded until 1745.
 
It would be great if you could elucidate on this point further. What interests and economics made it so reasonable to link them?

For one they were the settler states. While it was "the North" that contributed the most to westward settlement of most of the country, in fact virtually all of that settlement passed through Pennsylvania and New York. Even after the Erie Canal went in and diverted most of the Pennsylvania traffick, the cultural impact of PA was such in Ohio that it continued to be one of the strongest representative influences. It didn't hurt that German immigrants tended to go around Pennsylvania only to duck back and append themselves to the German folk movement with its origins in the Commonwealth.

Economically, the region's provinces were tied to each other by the oldest method in the book: shared river-bound trade routes. Most of early Pennsylvania's settled territory used the Susquehannah River as a conduit, a river which emptied in Maryland's portion of the Chesapeake Bay. A major issue in the early history of the former colony was the drive to build roads that would make Philadelphia "closer" to central Pennsylvania than was Baltimore. More to the point, eastern Pennsylvania, Delaware, and New Jersey were centered on the Delaware River, which effectively made them a single economic unit.

By this standard, admittedly, New York had a place neither with the New England provinces, nor with the mid-Atlantic. It was, rather, it's own little microsystem, with only the links to East Jersey that really pulled it the one way.

I'll have to get back to you on the rest of it, I'm afraid. It's rather close to bedtime over here.
 
Showing my ignorance here further: what co-operation was engaged with here? Do you think the New England colonies would have been more open to being merged into a single colony in this time period (after 1750, assuming no troubles kick off) better than they had previously?

Largely as a result of the thoroughly divided nature of the NE colonies, they were not able to function as discrete units in the same way as their larger equivalents to the west. As such they became much more reasonable and open in the inevitable set of deals and arrangements necessary with so many neighbors of such similar size. That should not be taken to represent their willingness to merge (lose) sovereignty. In fact one of the better examples of New England cooperation was their rejection of just this in 1689.

The New England colonies (and New York and New Jersey) were abolished in favor of a single "Dominion of New England" centered on Boston. Practical constraints soon saw New York and New Jersey partioned off to be a separate subunit, but as soon as word of the Glorious Revolution reached the colonies, their was something of a chaotic-but-coordinated revolution across New England. The former members of the colonial governments arrested or chased out the administrators of the new "dominion," announced that the latter had been loyal to the old king, and declared their allegiance to the new. William and Mary being a little busy across the pond at the time, this was treated as a fait accompli.

The key here is that the governments were cooperating and looking at their shared interests. The people under them were either ambivalent, local nationalists, or were interested in a union with all of the colonies, not just New England. Being governments, none of the colonial legislatures were interested in putting themselves out of work, but were instead interested in getting into a federal structure that was run more locally than London.

Usually South Carolina is included in the "deep south", but North Carolina is not. Is this the case for your "sense of shared interests"? If yes, is there a reason Virginia and North Carolina should be excluded?

In that case I was being anachronistic by not talking strictly about the original colonies. I meant the entire deep south, which viewed itself as more a specific interest group than the mid-Atlantics ever did.
 
Top