Holy Roman Empire In The 19th Century
- Thread starter mspence
- Start date
Maybe German Nationalism would cause the HRE to morph into a centralized federal state ruled from Vienna (POD, Prussia crippled), with Hungary under a cadet Habsburg branch. So it would be like the OTL German Empire in structure.
So it , would butterfly our World War I, because this Germany won't annex Bosnia, and the heir to the throne won't be going to Sarajevo in June 28, 1914.
ASUKIRIK
Banned
Why discard Hungary and the Balkans?
While the German-dominated HRE won't actively seek territories out there, I would bet that due to the looser, confederation-style arrangement, they might ended up being more or less "Proto-EU" with Emperors ended up *really* elected from the Kings, with constitution mandating election every 10 years or so.... Without any laws discriminating against non-Germans, eventually more Kingdoms (low countries, Scandinavians, Italian states) ended up slowly joining one by one, interested in Economic advantages, peace between the member kingdoms, as well as as a Defensive alliance against the big bad boys of Europe this time (France! Britain! Spain! Ottoman! Russia!).
Long story short, at the start of 20th century, most of Europe ended up in a de-facto Confederation of Kingdoms, sharing a common currency, common laws, common customs, and basically being an E.U. just with Royals.
That sounds nice but doesn't seem practical. Why would King of big kingdom accept the rule of king of small kingdom?
Austria's success in recovering Silesia during the Seven Years' War could help. If she also manages to recover Bavaria as she wanted to do during the War of the Bavarian Succession it could make Vienna's position in the Holy Roman Empire undisputable.
Then we have to subdue the last rebel monarchs (easy if Prussia is already out of the picture) and we end up with a HRE/Kaiserreich hybrid.
On the other hand I'm not sure that the rest of Europe is very happy, especially France.
Then we have to subdue the last rebel monarchs (easy if Prussia is already out of the picture) and we end up with a HRE/Kaiserreich hybrid.
On the other hand I'm not sure that the rest of Europe is very happy, especially France.
Grey Wolf
Donor
If you look at how Austria ruled its non-core territories prior to 1848, then you have a possible map for the divestment of the non-German territories. They basically had Habsburg viceroys, families who were coming associated with ruling those territories for the imperial crown - eg Hungary, Transylvania, Lombardy-Venetia, maybe Galicia-Lodomeria (was that the Dukes of Teschen?)
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Because Hungary and the Balkans weren't legally part of the HRE. The Kingdom of Croatia for example is an old title from the Middle Ages that became joined with the Hungarian Crown. The Kingdom of Hungary which was established in the 9th century was always separate from the actual HRE. One of the reasons Otto the Great was even able to claim the Imperial title was because he defeated a Pagan Magyar invasion into Europe. This got him major brownie points with the Church who saw it as Otto taking the fight to the Pagans like how Charlegmagne did with the Saxons. Hungary was also administered separately by Austria with their system of a Composite Monarchy. The Hungarians also grew very angry when Joseph I tried to make German the standard language.
I don't think it would be a that weak. Austria still had control of the Netherlands at this point. They had its resources since Louis XV in his idiocy gave the back to Austria after capturing it which made him a deeply unpopular figure in France (this damaged the prestige of the monarchy and was one of the main factors that screwed Louis XVI later because the prestige of the monarchy was so low). Also Prussia while a significant power, still only really got the Rhineland at the Congress of Vienna. This was how they were able to grow into the power that united Germany and was eventually able to beat France which was then regarded as the premier European power in terms of its military. Without the Rhineland, Prussia would not be strong enough to try and usurp Austrian leadership in the HRE which they held for over 400 years at this point. I feel like Austria could probably create their own Federal German Empire around the HRE which was also known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation. Though Austria could likely take Northern Italy as well because that was a dejure part of the HRE.
If the HRE survived or restored after the Napoleonic Wars, I can see it centralizing in 1848, if the revolutions still happen.
Why? Well I read that the King of Prussia,
OTL Frederick Wilhelm IV was offered the crown of German Emperor, but refused it because one of the reasons, was he wanted to restore the HRE, and would only take the Crown, if the Prince-electors offered it.
If the HRE, and the title of Holy Roman Emperor still existed in 1848, and if the Habsburgs waste this opportunity to centralize the HRE, and the Princes were desperate to keep their titles, they could offer the Title of Holy Roman Emperor to Frederick Wilhelm IV, to help stabilize the HRE, which could create a United Holy Roman Army, under Prussian Generals, which leads to a more centralized empire.
And if the Austrians and Habsburgs put up a fight? They’ll either have to be cut out of the HRE, or pacified and incorporated into the HRE, including its holdings in the Balkans, Poland and Hungary
Why? Well I read that the King of Prussia,
OTL Frederick Wilhelm IV was offered the crown of German Emperor, but refused it because one of the reasons, was he wanted to restore the HRE, and would only take the Crown, if the Prince-electors offered it.
If the HRE, and the title of Holy Roman Emperor still existed in 1848, and if the Habsburgs waste this opportunity to centralize the HRE, and the Princes were desperate to keep their titles, they could offer the Title of Holy Roman Emperor to Frederick Wilhelm IV, to help stabilize the HRE, which could create a United Holy Roman Army, under Prussian Generals, which leads to a more centralized empire.
And if the Austrians and Habsburgs put up a fight? They’ll either have to be cut out of the HRE, or pacified and incorporated into the HRE, including its holdings in the Balkans, Poland and Hungary
Prussia was not the power it was in 1848 when the HRE was still around. Prussia would not have the resources from the Rhineland to industrialize more thoroughly. They also have to get through Saxony first which lost 3/4 of its territory after the Napoleonic Wars. Saxony was a long time ally of Saxony along with Bavaria and there' no way the Prussians could muster enough support to gain control of the HRE. Austria has the Bohemian Electoral seat along with Saxony's and Bavaria's votes. Austria had the whole deck rigged in favor of themselves for centuries by this point. The Prussian Army also rested on its laurels and only really reformed after it was thrashed and humiliated by Napoleon as well.
For a lasting HRE, you could have Napoleon take up the Imperial title as Charlemagne's successor. This would be the ultimate PR piece for him, and would give him more legitimacy in Central Europe. Francis II the last otl Emperor dissolved the HRE so that Napoleon couldn't usurp the title.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Prussia pre-Napoleon would have Warsaw, and does have the 3 duchies in the Rhineland area, plus it ruled Emden for a time.
That is even assuming everything magically stays static without Napoleon etc. It's entirely possible that whatever timeline occurs sees a growth for Prussia in some directions - Pomerania? Holstein? Oldenburg?
That is even assuming everything magically stays static without Napoleon etc. It's entirely possible that whatever timeline occurs sees a growth for Prussia in some directions - Pomerania? Holstein? Oldenburg?