"Heil mein Führer. Sie sind verhaftet!"

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Super Missile, please let me explain the pov of the law, which might not be the pov of many historians.

1. Before I will forget it, I totally forgot about the Japanese death camps. However, with the coup they were also closed and all PoW were distributed to "normal" camps.

2. The air strike on Rotterdam was no war crime, although many name it this way. But that is from a legal point of view wrong. It wasn't one because of two reasons.

a) According to Art. 25 of the Hague Convention of 1907 it was forbidden to attack undefended cities and villages. Rotterdam was under siege and was defended. Therefore it was a legitime target per se. However, the city had surrendered and therefore was no longer a legitimate target (in contrast to Warsaw 1939, which was still defended).

b) Unfortunately the surrender did not arrive half of the bomber wings en route to Rotterdam due to a series of bad luck (clouds, no contact with the base, abortion signal misinterpreted as flak...). That makes the bombardment of Rotterdam a huge tragedy, but was "only" an accident. And thus no war crime. Unfortunately many historians do not read carefully the Hague Conventions.

This is a plain legal point of view. From a morale point of view we can discuss it. But then we can't say that are crimes.

Adler

Adler,

I believe you have gone to far. The bombing of Rotterdam by the Nazis on May 14th 1940was a warcrime. As was the one of March 31st 1943.
What I can say or not is not up to you. You simply denying the warcrime will not make it go away. Your reasons mentioned prove you wrong!

It seems to me that you have lost reality.

I shall report this!
 
Adler,

I believe you have gone to far. The bombing of Rotterdam by the Nazis on May 14th 1940was a warcrime. As was the one of March 31st 1943.
What I can say or not is not up to you. You simply denying the warcrime will not make it go away. Your reasons mentioned prove you wrong!

It seems to me that you have lost reality.

I shall report this!
What Adler wrote ist absolutely the truth. The Bombing of Rotterdam - so bitter it was - was no crime. The Convention of The Hague is here absolutely clear.
I don't want to deny that this was a tragedy. Absolutely not. It was as bitter as the bombing of every city in this world is. London, Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki... the list is long. And it has shown, that bombing cities is no methode of winning a war, if you don't want to kill the whole people of your enemy.

But if you see the tragedy of Rotterdam under the POV of the Hague Conventionthen there is no doubt, that this attack was an act of war. But no crime

Sorry...

- Ariennye
 

Adler

Banned
Adler,

I believe you have gone to far. The bombing of Rotterdam by the Nazis on May 14th 1940was a warcrime. As was the one of March 31st 1943.
What I can say or not is not up to you. You simply denying the warcrime will not make it go away. Your reasons mentioned prove you wrong!

It seems to me that you have lost reality.

I shall report this!

I am sorry, you think this way. But as I said, it was a tragedy, an accident. But in no way a warcrime. Please explain me, why it was. Please use the International Law to do so. Belgrade was a crime. Dresden. Hiroshima. But not Rotterdam. Also I don't want to offend here anyone, just talking about the legal situation. Not more or less.

Adler
 
As far as I personally have read Rotterdam was an attack carried out with the specific intention of murdering civilians and terrorizing the Netherlands into surrender. It was pretty clearly a war crime.
 

Adler

Banned
Sorry, then you read the wrong sources. Rotterdam was a sieged city. Thus it was defended and a legitime target. They were even given the opportunity to surrender. That they did and the air strike happened was a tragedy and an accident, but no war crime. In that times a city was allowed to be bombarded, if it was defended. And with defended it was meant a city under siege. That was true for Warsaw and for Rotterdam.

Adler
 
I am sorry, you think this way. But as I said, it was a tragedy, an accident. But in no way a warcrime. Please explain me, why it was. Please use the International Law to do so. Belgrade was a crime. Dresden. Hiroshima. But not Rotterdam. Also I don't want to offend here anyone, just talking about the legal situation. Not more or less.

Adler
Dresden? Hiroshima? Why? There were AA, the towns were producing military material, they were military hubs. What the hell is the difference. My country was allied with Germany and its towns were bombed by US and Russians and nobody is really pissed off. Well except few neonazis. Who cares about them. Bombed towns were manufacturing oil, weapons or were major military hubs. When part of the army fought the Germans, other towns were bombed by Germans. They were again military hubs, center of opposition government and military. What the hell we allied wit Germans and we paid for it. Actually we who have nothing with it are paying for it till now. Germans started the war and they were bombed. Now they are crying it was against the law?
Hey guys, wake up. They had a f****ing choice. After Hitler got Austria, after Hitler got Sudetland, after Hitler got freaking Protectorate Bohmen und Mahren. Nothing happend. But he was an asshole. He pushed too much. So when he started his games against Poland and Britain and France FINALY decided it is time to start a war against Germany, it is fault of war mongering English and France. No my dear friend. They were just pushed too f**ing much. Hitler had a choice and he decided. His gamble didn't paid. As the old joke said. Fuhrer didn't had a globe, too see his potential enemies and their potential. And Germans paid the price. They had to move out of Prussia, they had to move out of Silesia, they had to move out of Romenia, Hungary, Slovakia and Czech Sudetland.
Guten morgen Deutschland. Everybody paid the price during the war, but Germany paid the final bill. And still end up pretty good. Actually Poland and all countries east of Soviet border should sue now Germany for compensations for freaking 40 years of communist oppression. If not Germans and the war they started the sick communist ideology could be contained for poor people of Soviet union. But no, Germans needed to start the war. They needed to repair the unjustice of WWI. Well they got the justice of another war. They not like it?
Well, maybe one day German jackboot will march again and we will see. Maybe as old saying says "Third time will everything go right", they will win and kill all us undesirable to get the living space they need so badly and were fighting for for 1000 years.
 
Sorry, then you read the wrong sources. Rotterdam was a sieged city. Thus it was defended and a legitime target. They were even given the opportunity to surrender. That they did and the air strike happened was a tragedy and an accident, but no war crime. In that times a city was allowed to be bombarded, if it was defended. And with defended it was meant a city under siege. That was true for Warsaw and for Rotterdam.

Adler
Dresden was sieged city of sieged state. A lot of soldiers going through its major railway station. Same deal. Right?
 
Dresden was sieged city of sieged state. A lot of soldiers going through its major railway station. Same deal. Right?
And there you are totally wrong. International law did already prohibit bombing of civil targets. And we all know that area bombing was only used to hit civil targets. So Dresden and Rotterdam and Warsaw and etc. were all war crimes.
 
Sorry, then you read the wrong sources. Rotterdam was a sieged city. Thus it was defended and a legitime target. They were even given the opportunity to surrender. That they did and the air strike happened was a tragedy and an accident, but no war crime. In that times a city was allowed to be bombarded, if it was defended. And with defended it was meant a city under siege. That was true for Warsaw and for Rotterdam.

Adler

No, it was not. The Germans could have easily seized the city without resorting to the murder of civilians. The Dutch military was broken at that point and couldn't put up effective resistance; German ground forces could have seized the city without suffering heavy losses. Instead they decided to launch massive bomber attacks with the specific intent to kill numerous Dutch civilians in order to terrorize the city and nation into surrender. The act was entirely unecessary and a brutal war crime. If they had attacked legitimate military targets then perhaps it could be considered more acceptable, but their attacks were almost completely against defenseless civilians in residential neigborhoods.
 
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And there you are totally wrong. International law did already prohibit bombing of civil targets. And we all know that area bombing was only used to hit civil targets. So Dresden and Rotterdam and Warsaw and etc. were all war crimes.
Well. The unfortunate think of WWII is, that when Nazis took off the gloves, everybody else had to. Unfortunately, later, a lot of Germans paid with their lives. And some of them were indeed even innocent.
But there are few funny stories from bombing campaign. Nazis were so desperate for men power for their fire brigades, because their drafted German men to kill civilians in eastern Europe, they brought young people from occupied Europe to serve in fire brigades. And guess what happened. These youngsters whenever they got opportunity to do it without suspicion left Nazis houses burnt to ground. can you imagine. It had to be hilarious. You git Brits and Americans day and night bombing Nazis. And then you got fire brigades made up from French, Dutch, Czechs and god knows who else not fighting the fires properly.
 
No, it was not. The Germans could have easily seized the city without resorting to the murder of civilians. The Dutch military was broken at that point and couldn't put up effective resistance; German ground forces could have seized the city without suffering heavy losses. Instead they decided to launch massive bomber attacks with the specific intent to kill numerous Dutch civilians in order to terrorize the city and nation into surrender. The act was entirely unecessary and a brutal war crime. If they had attacked legitimate military targets then perhaps it could be considered more acceptable, but their attacks were almost completely against defenseless civilians in residential neigborhoods.

Unfortunately the laws of war do not agree. It is not a very humane interpretation but the bombing attacks were permissible.

Unless a city is declared an 'open city' or surrenders such attacks are legal.
For one, if the dutch soldiers ever used civilian housing as defense position the provided justication.
For another, barring orders that say "Here, bomb this civilian neighborhood for shits and giggles" what makes you say that did so delibaretely ? Bombing accuracy sucks, and that early a 'bomber' might mean a JU-52 cargo plane with two guys shoveling bombs out of side door.

If you really want to complain: Leningrad. Legally what happened was perfectly fine - there is no obligation to force a siege. Practically...

Oh btw.: Do you know the purpose for developing "Luftminen" by the RAF ? It was so roofs of residential blocks in Berlin would be blown off so that the phosphor bombs could finally start a firestorm in the capital. Unlike Cologne, Mainz or Hamburg Berlin was mostly new construction and had wide open streets, which tended to limit bomb damage only to hit blocks.

But please do go on and rail the crime accidential bombings because the squadron didn't get the abort order. Or Warsaw which was declared a fortress city and saw civilians helping erect defenses. (Second Warsaw is a entirely different matter.)
If the Nazis hadn't been well, Nazis, no one would give a fuck about these incidents, but because Nazis are, well, Nazis every single thing is viewed in most negative manner possible.
Not that redeclaring Occams Razor to state "If in doubt the Nazis did it for the most vile explanation applicable" when dealing with actions by german armed forces and government organs during the Nazi regime isn't generally the way to go. Particularly the Wehrmacht did a lot of whitewashing of reprehensible stuff.
Just sometimes it isn't the way to go.
 

Adler

Banned
The problems with International Law in these times was, that it was still bound to a time of 1907 and not 1940. Too many things had happened, so that the law was "running behind" the reality.

However, we have some rules. And the main rule is: Do not harm civilians! This main rule was tried to be introduced the the Hague Conventions. But there rules for aerial warfare were missed. So these rules had to be evolved out of the existing rules. This is common in International Law, as mostly the conventions only write the rules, which already exist.

Another rule is, if the other side breaks a rule, you can break the rule, too, to enforce the other to keep the rule. This is called reprisal.

So we have to look at the bombings of ww2, in how far they were legal. At first the bombing of defended cities, like Warsaw 1939, was allowed (1944 is a completely other case). Warsaw was defended and became even a fortress. Also the Poles were warned and although they said, they would give up, they didn't. Thus the bombardment was legal.

Rotterdam was also defended. And the Dutch fought fiercely. There were no signs of a morale breakdown. So the Dutch were also asked to surrender. They did so. Because of several unlucky circumstances half of the German bomber force did not get the order to stop the attack on Rotterdam but another, secondary target (British forces). Thus this became a tragedy, an accident. But in no way a crime according to the International Law.

Because of planes targets could be attacked, which were not in range in 1907. So a German bomber could attack a factory in Manchester. As it was allowed to attack factories, at least the factories, which produce war material. Thus Coventry was a legitime target, as there was industry. That civilians were hit, too, is unfortunate, but these collateral damages are accepted by the International Law and making it no war crime. Thus also US attacks like on Schweinfurt were legal, too.

What was in no way acceptable was the attacking of civilians. Thus the whole bombing campaign of the RAF against Germany, except Essen, was a whole warcrime, as they willingly attacked civilians. And that was forbidden. That in cases also legitime targets were hit, does not justify these attacks, as they were conducted there to hurt civilians. Because the RAF started this campaign German reprisal attacks were no warcrimes as they were justified in the attempt to force the RAF back to legal means.

These attacks were also not justified, as that there were flak and other defenses. Indeed "defended city" as under Art. 25 meant only cities in range of ground troops. Thus a storming or a siege had to follow at once. Defenses, mostly even placed to stop illegal attacks, do not justify them, too. That would be to punish someone as murderer, who defended himself with a weapon he illegally owned against an illegal attack of the victim.

However, Belgrade is not justifiable, too, as the Yougoslavs were no Allies of Britain in the moment of the attack. And it is a problem, if you can do reprisals against an ally of an enemy, who breaks the laws. At least until the ally doesn't support them, you can't act against him with reprisals.

Dresden, as it was clearly against civilians, was a warcrime.

This is the legal situation. If you call something a warcrime, you need to argue in a legal way. Otherwise you can't blame something as warcrime, only if you want that it is one.

Adler
 
Well, you're very wrong.
3. From a German's pov from this time the Poles were guilty. They had displaced and murdered Germans there. The Corridore was also mostly German inhabited by 1913. In any case a referendum would have meant, it would stay with Germany. In 1910 hardly 40% of the Westprussians were Polish/Kashubian speakings. And as almost all Germans in Masuria and Upper Silesia voted for Germany, but many Poles, too, the referendum result was clear here as well. Thus the Corridore was a casus belli for them.

Adler

I've been looking for this, and the only sources I can find for Poles murdering Germans in the Polish Corridor relate to one of three things:

1. Nazi propaganda, and typical fascist blood-and-soil bitching.
2. Anti-German riots in Bydgoszcz, after the war had already begun.
3. The expulsion of Germans from East Prussia and the newly annexed parts of Post-WWII Poland (this I will agree was a terrible crime, but you can't use it to argue that Germany was simply defending its people in attacking Poland).

I'd like to see some sources or at least anecdotes, because right now it looks like you're parroting Nazi propaganda.
 
I've been looking for this, and the only sources I can find for Poles murdering Germans in the Polish Corridor relate to one of three things:

1. Nazi propaganda, and typical fascist blood-and-soil bitching.
2. Anti-German riots in Bydgoszcz, after the war had already begun.
3. The expulsion of Germans from East Prussia and the newly annexed parts of Post-WWII Poland (this I will agree was a terrible crime, but you can't use it to argue that Germany was simply defending its people in attacking Poland).

I'd like to see some sources or at least anecdotes, because right now it looks like you're parroting Nazi propaganda.

Do note that he said from "From a German's pov from this time".
Hindsight is 20/20 and when it comes to Nazis often disgusting.

What we know, what the Nazi knew and claimed and what the follow-on german government ITTL knows are distinct things.
 
Do note that he said from "From a German's pov from this time".
Hindsight is 20/20 and when it comes to Nazis often disgusting.

What we know, what the Nazi knew and claimed and what the follow-on german government ITTL knows are distinct things.

I get what you're saying, but I think Adler17 was arguing that there were large scale attacks on ethnic Germans in the interwar Polish corridor. If I misread you, Adler, I'm sorry, and if you have sources I'd be very interested.
 
The problems with International Law in these times was, that it was still bound to a time of 1907 and not 1940. Too many things had happened, so that the law was "running behind" the reality.

However, we have some rules. And the main rule is: Do not harm civilians! This main rule was tried to be introduced the the Hague Conventions. But there rules for aerial warfare were missed. So these rules had to be evolved out of the existing rules. This is common in International Law, as mostly the conventions only write the rules, which already exist.

Another rule is, if the other side breaks a rule, you can break the rule, too, to enforce the other to keep the rule. This is called reprisal.

So we have to look at the bombings of ww2, in how far they were legal. At first the bombing of defended cities, like Warsaw 1939, was allowed (1944 is a completely other case). Warsaw was defended and became even a fortress. Also the Poles were warned and although they said, they would give up, they didn't. Thus the bombardment was legal.

Rotterdam was also defended. And the Dutch fought fiercely. There were no signs of a morale breakdown. So the Dutch were also asked to surrender. They did so. Because of several unlucky circumstances half of the German bomber force did not get the order to stop the attack on Rotterdam but another, secondary target (British forces). Thus this became a tragedy, an accident. But in no way a crime according to the International Law.

Because of planes targets could be attacked, which were not in range in 1907. So a German bomber could attack a factory in Manchester. As it was allowed to attack factories, at least the factories, which produce war material. Thus Coventry was a legitime target, as there was industry. That civilians were hit, too, is unfortunate, but these collateral damages are accepted by the International Law and making it no war crime. Thus also US attacks like on Schweinfurt were legal, too.

What was in no way acceptable was the attacking of civilians. Thus the whole bombing campaign of the RAF against Germany, except Essen, was a whole warcrime, as they willingly attacked civilians. And that was forbidden. That in cases also legitime targets were hit, does not justify these attacks, as they were conducted there to hurt civilians. Because the RAF started this campaign German reprisal attacks were no warcrimes as they were justified in the attempt to force the RAF back to legal means.

These attacks were also not justified, as that there were flak and other defenses. Indeed "defended city" as under Art. 25 meant only cities in range of ground troops. Thus a storming or a siege had to follow at once. Defenses, mostly even placed to stop illegal attacks, do not justify them, too. That would be to punish someone as murderer, who defended himself with a weapon he illegally owned against an illegal attack of the victim.

However, Belgrade is not justifiable, too, as the Yougoslavs were no Allies of Britain in the moment of the attack. And it is a problem, if you can do reprisals against an ally of an enemy, who breaks the laws. At least until the ally doesn't support them, you can't act against him with reprisals.

Dresden, as it was clearly against civilians, was a warcrime.

This is the legal situation. If you call something a warcrime, you need to argue in a legal way. Otherwise you can't blame something as warcrime, only if you want that it is one.

Adler

Ok the Rotterdam attack was planned to attack civilians from the beginning, though the actual attack was an accident so by your defintion this makes it a warcrime ditto Warsaw.
Also you seem to be saying that it was the Dutch/polish peoples fault for daring to resist an invasion of their country!
How about this for an argument the RAF area bombing attacks were justified in that they were part of a war being fought to remove a criminal regime that had unprovoked invaded numerous countries, was involved in mass genocide and until late 1944/1945 had the suppport of the vast majority of the population?
 

Adler

Banned
rip89, the attack on Warsaw (and Rotterdam originally) was against a defended city. In these cases even the bombardment is allowed and the protection of civilians was reduced. If you want to argue, you need to argue with the rules and laws. Also the removal of a criminal government does not justify any attrocities. Otherwise the Nazis would be justified as well with their crimes against the Soviet population as they wanted to remove a criminal regime as well...

Adler
 

Adler

Banned
Poles murdering Germans in the aftermath of 1919 was mostly propaganda by the Nazis, true (there might have happened single events in these years, but in no way at large scale attacks like at Bromberg 1939). But from an average Germans pov of that time it was believed.

However, the Germans still living there were citizens of the lowest class and many were expelled or in other ways forced to leave after 1919.

Adler
 
Problem is, referring to WWII, all the crimes or perceived crimes committed by the Nazis are magnified and in many cases removed of context.
The crimes committed by the allies, especially by the WAllies, are whitewashed and rationalized every-time. Is not a war of white knights against evil. Bot sides committed horrible crimes, but the side that wins, decided that history only consider crimes the ones committed or they say are committed by the losers.
 
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