Germans introduce V1 in 1940

Except the Katyusha is a tactical battlefield weapon with a degree of flexibility. The V-1 is a strategic weapon that can only hit a target that's in the direction of its launch ramp and is big enough to be hit by the not very accurate rocket. It's a bad strategic weapon and it would be an even worse tactical one, and I am saying that as the person who drew this:
View attachment 764072
Nice pic.
I drew this up several years ago, it's a Karl Gerät self propelled 60 cm. siege mortar and ammo carrier converted into a V-1 launcher, like your pic the V-1 here has RATO rockets attached to assist in launching.
g0Ljasw.png

Seven Gerät motars were built IOTL the first one entering service in 1941. If the Heer (army) instead of the Luftwaffe had shown an interest in the weapon as a form of long range artillery, I could see something like this being produced in mid to late 1940 but I can't guess what the number of these weapons would be but I'm sure it would be more than seven and a lot cheaper and less time consuming than the Karl Gerät.

Still, not a game changer or a war winner but an interesting alternate weapon system.
 
Sure. But that was why those devices were developed. If they had those the Americans then they would have those capable of use in proximity fuzes
Original use for those small, rugged tubes was for hearing aids, and then to the Handi-Talkie portable radios. And wouldn’t been surprised if the Hungarians had similar that could have been used, had not the Germans ignored that the Hungarian electronics industry was better than the Germans, could have used that. The circuits are not that complicated
 
Except the Katyusha is a tactical battlefield weapon with a degree of flexibility. The V-1 is a strategic weapon that can only hit a target that's in the direction of its launch ramp and is big enough to be hit by the not very accurate rocket. It's a bad strategic weapon and it would be an even worse tactical one, and I am saying that as the person who drew this:
View attachment 764072

Nice pic.
I drew this up several years ago, it's a Karl Gerät self propelled 60 cm. siege mortar and ammo carrier converted into a V-1 launcher, like your pic the V-1 here has RATO rockets attached to assist in launching.
g0Ljasw.png

Seven Gerät motars were built IOTL the first one entering service in 1941. If the Heer (army) instead of the Luftwaffe had shown an interest in the weapon as a form of long range artillery, I could see something like this being produced in mid to late 1940 but I can't guess what the number of these weapons would be but I'm sure it would be more than seven and a lot cheaper and less time consuming than the Karl Gerät.

Still, not a game changer or a war winner but an interesting alternate weapon system.
There was a thread about V-1s a while back, and in that the idea of using V-1s as long range artillery was raised. Generally speaking, over anything up to about 20km range, conventional tube or rocket artillery is far more effective. And we also know that, at strategic ranges, the v-1s accuracy was so low as to make them an ineffective means of delivering explosives. However, there may be a niche for them at an operational level. Over ranges of around 100km their accuracy will be much better, perhaps good enough to strike operationally-significant targets (such as airbases, supply or repair depots, marshalling areas, logistics hubs, etc). It might be possible for them to be made in large quantitities for that purpose prior to the fall of france. And once France falls, well, they already have all these robot bombs... it'd be a shame to let them go to waste.

Put them under the operational control of the Wehrmacht, and it could be plausible.
 
There was a thread about V-1s a while back, and in that the idea of using V-1s as long range artillery was raised. Generally speaking, over anything up to about 20km range, conventional tube or rocket artillery is far more effective. And we also know that, at strategic ranges, the v-1s accuracy was so low as to make them an ineffective means of delivering explosives. However, there may be a niche for them at an operational level. Over ranges of around 100km their accuracy will be much better, perhaps good enough to strike operationally-significant targets (such as airbases, supply or repair depots, marshalling areas, logistics hubs, etc). It might be possible for them to be made in large quantitities for that purpose prior to the fall of france. And once France falls, well, they already have all these robot bombs... it'd be a shame to let them go to waste.

Put them under the operational control of the Wehrmacht, and it could be plausible.
IIRC the Heer took an interest in rocketry in the 1920's because they were forbidden by the ToV to build or experiment with long range artillery so it's not totally implausible for the army to take an interest in the V-1 with some helpful butterflies.
 
No idea what was there at the time. No obvious large industrial sites. It's close to Greenwich.

My wild guess would be: German bombers following the Thames to find London (we can see the black stuff along the course of the river), and turning south (the logical way to turn) to start the return trip, and the southern black bit is those that drop bombs just after the turn rather than just before.

Cool, cheers

Still, it does explain why it's hard to get a taxi to go south of the river at night. Still scared of German bombers.

It would explain teh constant crossing of themselves and fearful looks they give when doing so

Not sure if the dark patch in the south extends to Croydon, which IIRC was one of the most heavily bombed London councils during WWII.

Unless the scale is wrong I don't think it that far south? (I could be wrong though)

It contained or was close to three Fighter Command airfields at Croydon Airport, Kenley & Biggin Hill; there were also a fair bit of aircraft industry based there, as Croydon had been (still was?) the UK's major civilian airport, with companies such as Red Wing. My grandfather, a master builder and so in a reserved occupation, spent much time on duty to repair bomb damage to the infrastructure.

Croydon was also an important rail junction, where the lines from London Bridge & Victoria met before splitting off for south coast destinations such as Hastings, Newhaven, Seaford, Brighton, and Portsmouth, or further west via Guildford. There were large marshalling yards at Norwood Junction.

I would add that my mother was in an air raid shelter at her school during a busy period of V-1 raids when a near miss buried the shelter's entrance, and the kids had to be evacuated through an emergency pipe exit. Those shelters at Chipstead Valley Primary outlived my time there, only being demolished some time in the late 1970's.
True enough

I actaully found this site which is quite good
 
SE England was far enough away from French bases, that Stukas were dead meat, despite the (limited) escort ability of the Me-109, and Medium bombers had to fly at night from high daytime losses(poor 109 ability, again), limiting accuracy to not much better than V-1
So V-1 frees up the medium bombers from the role of terror bombing London and such.
What to do with those idle medium bombers and crews during the Blitz?

But having V-1’s ready to to
SE England was far enough away from French bases, that Stukas were dead meat, despite the (limited) escort ability of the Me-109, and Medium bombers had to fly at night from high daytime losses(poor 109 ability, again), limiting accuracy to not much better than V-1
So V-1 frees up the medium bombers from the role of terror bombing London and such.
What to do with those idle medium bombers and crews during the Blitz?

But having V-1’s ready to go by 1940 requires fully funding them by 1938 or so. In 1938, the German military isn’t planning a terror bombing campaign of London.
 
Hmm. Wouldn't the V-1 be perfect to deliver nerve gas? Perhaps they are build with the ability to carry a conventional explosive but in case the Allies start using gas they will be repurposed for long range - large area dispersal?
 

nbcman

Donor
Hmm. Wouldn't the V-1 be perfect to deliver nerve gas? Perhaps they are build with the ability to carry a conventional explosive but in case the Allies start using gas they will be repurposed for long range - large area dispersal?
Chemical agent payloads in missiles are delivered via an airburst or bomblets. A V1 had a contact fuse or a delayed action fuse after impact. So it would take some technology advances to be able to repurpose the V1s with a chemical agent payload. In addition, Germany didn't start production of nerve agents until 1942 unless Germany is getting a 5 year tech and production advantage over OTL?
 
Chemical agent payloads in missiles are delivered via an airburst or bomblets. A V1 had a contact fuse or a delayed action fuse after impact. So it would take some technology advances to be able to repurpose the V1s with a chemical agent payload. In addition, Germany didn't start production of nerve agents until 1942 unless Germany is getting a 5 year tech and production advantage over OTL?
The Germans set the altitude it flies at, and distance it will fly after the autopilot shuts off the fuel for its final death dive. For CW payload, it starts dispersing the chemical at or just before the fuel cutoff signal, and sprays at a rate that the tanks are empty before estimated impact with the ground.
Or simple barometer, that is armed when passing, say 2000 feet, and activates when barometer drops below that a second time during the final dive.

but as you point out, they didn't have the quantities needed OTL in 1945 for nerve gas production
Mustard Gas would be a better choice than the nerve agents. It has long life/persistence after being sprayed, unlike Nerve Gas
 
The Germans set the altitude it flies at, and distance it will fly after the autopilot shuts off the fuel for its final death dive. For CW payload, it starts dispersing the chemical at or just before the fuel cutoff signal, and sprays at a rate that the tanks are empty before estimated impact with the ground.
Or simple barometer, that is armed when passing, say 2000 feet, and activates when barometer drops below that a second time during the final dive.

but as you point out, they didn't have the quantities needed OTL in 1945 for nerve gas production
Mustard Gas would be a better choice than the nerve agents. It has long life/persistence after being sprayed, unlike Nerve Gas
Mustard gas has to be delivered in concentrated form in suitability (enclosed) terrain for it have an effect and even then the effect is often short live unless you get relatively a big dose (mustard gas is still better than previous gases in this regard).

Any delivery stem that involves despising it in air in even a short final flight path is going to weaken the effect massively because simply too few people will get a worthwhile contact with it. The shear volume of air you are talking about then to you take into account the inherent inaccuracy of the V1 is huge especially when you take into account counter electronic counter measures is huge.

Mustard gas can be effective but it it effectiveness is limited by the specifics of deployment and this is a really bad way to deploy it.
 
I confess I've been fascinated by the speculation as to how the widespread early use of the V1 against London would have impacted the morale of Londoners in particular.

As someone who was around and in the East End of London for the period OTL where the V1 was in use, I always find such speculation fascinating, especially when there seems to be no reference to the many, many contemporaneous records kept by the ordinary people who were there.

I heard a anecdote once from a woman who was about age eight in 1944. Her fatter whom she could barely remember came home on leave during the V Blitz, which understandably was a very bid deal for her. The family had gone out, & while on the street her parent abruptly tackled her & her four year old brother to the pavement. She remembered getting up after the detonation & realizing the people who were not getting up were dead.
 
Mustard gas has to be delivered in concentrated form in suitability (enclosed) terrain for it have an effect and even then the effect is often short live unless you get relatively a big dose (mustard gas is still better than previous gases in this regard).

Any delivery stem that involves despising it in air in even a short final flight path is going to weaken the effect massively because simply too few people will get a worthwhile contact with it. The shear volume of air you are talking about then to you take into account the inherent inaccuracy of the V1 is huge especially when you take into account counter electronic counter measures is huge.

Mustard gas can be effective but it it effectiveness is limited by the specifics of deployment and this is a really bad way to deploy it.
Any aerosol delivery far exceeds any dispersion effort via high explosive.
Nerve gas, that does best in enclosed spaces, not like the persistent Mustard gas. People in France still can suffer when exposed to over 100 year old Mustard.
Any area sprayed with Mustard needs to be actively decontaminated. Mother Nature takes too long to naturally break it down to where casual exposure won't be a problem.
 
But having V-1’s ready to to


But having V-1’s ready to go by 1940 requires fully funding them by 1938 or so. In 1938, the German military isn’t planning a terror bombing campaign of London.

Earlier there was mention of this against Paris were the 1940 campaign stalemated. Ah Ha! I thought, build it initially for use against Paris. Then I checked the ranges on the map. The Fi103 could not reach Paris from German territory of 1939 :frown: A flying Paris bomb launched from the Rhineland would have to trade off a lot of explosive for fuel. The V1 as we know it would be aimed at Nancy, Metz, or maybe Rheims
 
Earlier there was mention of this against Paris were the 1940 campaign stalemated. Ah Ha! I thought, build it initially for use against Paris. Then I checked the ranges on the map. The Fi103 could not reach Paris from German territory of 1939 :frown: A flying Paris bomb launched from the Rhineland would have to trade off a lot of explosive for fuel. The V1 as we know it would be aimed at Nancy, Metz, or maybe Rheims
Original Specs for the Fi-103 for range was186 miles from its170 gallons of fuel, and a half ton warhead.
That's roughly the distance from the German Border in Saarland to Paris.
Production version had an 1800 pound warhead, and 160 mile range.
 
The normal production V-1 (Fi 103A-1) had a rather limited range, though, there were longer range versions made and given that this weapon is supposed to be used against Paris, it isn't unlikely for them to make from the start the long range version.
(What's interesting to note is that the A-1's wing was made out of metal)
L4rE5pC.png
 

Garrison

Donor
Hmm. Wouldn't the V-1 be perfect to deliver nerve gas? Perhaps they are build with the ability to carry a conventional explosive but in case the Allies start using gas they will be repurposed for long range - large area dispersal?
And why have the Germans, who refused to break out the nerve gas when the 'Bolshevik hordes' were storming towards Berlin, suddenly in the mid 1930s decide to build a system to drop nerve gas, which they don't have yet, on London?
 
And why have the Germans, who refused to break out the nerve gas when the 'Bolshevik hordes' were storming towards Berlin, suddenly in the mid 1930s decide to build a system to drop nerve gas, which they don't have yet, on London?
It's not about London in this case, but against France. And it is just a configuration of the V-1 that can easily be made/fitted to the regular flying bomb in case the Allies use gas. (A fear shared at the beginning and early war by both the Axis and Allies)
 

Garrison

Donor
It's not about London in this case, but against France. And it is just a configuration of the V-1 that can easily be made/fitted to the regular flying bomb in case the Allies use gas. (A fear shared at the beginning and early war by both the Axis and Allies)
But they never came even close to doing this OTL and it seems like just another desperate attempt to make the V-1 relevant or useful by creating a scenario that lacks plausibility.
 
But they never came even close to doing this OTL and it seems like just another desperate attempt to make the V-1 relevant or useful by creating a scenario that lacks plausibility.
I was just putting out an idea on a reason of why they would go with the V-1 before the war. Though, in the case of a successful BoB with the bombers focusing on airfields and factories while the V-1s are used against cities and ports, if they attempt a Sea Lion, at it fails obviously, the troops on the ground are very likely going to get gassed which could incentivize a response in kind by using the V-1s.
 
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