French California

In 1838 there was no stopping the manifest destiny train. I think French would be sent a letter by Goliath asking how much they want to sell it for. And to weight the cost of refusal against the cost of war.
As has already been stated, "Manifest Destiny" isn't actually "Manifest Destiny". At this point it's just a pipe-dream among some US talking-heads. There's also no reason to believe the US could win a war against France in the early-19th Century.
 
As has already been stated, "Manifest Destiny" isn't actually "Manifest Destiny". At this point it's just a pipe-dream among some US talking-heads. There's also no reason to believe the US could win a war against France in the early-19th Century.
The issue is more that the US is close and really freaking big, and California very far away from France, while Germany is just across the border...
Not that the US will inevitably end up buying/conquering California, but France would need a lot of dominoes falling just right to avoid any dangerous continental entanglements, while the US was, so long as it was capable, going to strongly desire a Pacific Port somewhere, and the Gold Rush is going to result in a lot of Yankee freebooters....
That said- the US purchasing part of California, or even going for broke against Britain and taking Vancouver/Pacific Canada (or hell, all of Canada.... this probably butterflies the Mexican-American War, since solving the 54-40 crisis was a major factor in freeing the US from the danger of British intervention) would rather substantively ease the pressure.
 
As has already been stated, "Manifest Destiny" isn't actually "Manifest Destiny". At this point it's just a pipe-dream among some US talking-heads. There's also no reason to believe the US could win a war against France in the early-19th Century.
Yeah other people have said it but I disagree, and I massively disagree with your assertion that the US couldn't win a land war on the North American continent against France in 1838. At this stage the US population was growing very rapidly, it's economy was taking off and France would have had a huge line of logistics to supply California. You're underplaying the strength of the US.

Edit: In 1838 France's population was 34, 600,000. US population was 17,069,453. France would have to hold land an ocean and a continent away. This is why I say France's best bet would be to sell the land because they couldn't hold it.


 
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I wonder what the French attitude to Chinese and Japanese immigration would be. We’re a long way from the “model Catholic colony” of Quebec, so they might have a similar mindset as the British did towards South Asian workers in Natal. As long as California is a net-benefit for France, the government could see nonwhite immigration as being “out of sight, out of mind” rather than a harbinger of the Yellow Peril as seen by the United States and Canada.
 
I wonder what the French attitude to Chinese and Japanese immigration would be. We’re a long way from the “model Catholic colony” of Quebec, so they might have a similar mindset as the British did towards South Asian workers in Natal. As long as California is a net-benefit for France, the government could see nonwhite immigration as being “out of sight, out of mind” rather than a harbinger of the Yellow Peril as seen by the United States and Canada.
I thought of the same thing. France would want population increase but I think they would be scared of three groups.

1. American settlers. Obvious reasons. The French are not stupid and know full well what will happen if the place fills up with Americans beyond all control. Unlike Mexico however (who knew the same thing, of course) France is more willing to try and perhaps more likely to succeed in controlling the possible tide of American settlers. 1838 might be early enough to get a handle on things, or maybe not.

2. Mexicans in general. Any increase of this group would probably set off paranoid fears of a Mexican revolt and reversion. Overblown but imperial powers tend to be sketchy about such things. I can see Mexicans, both former and future, being discriminated against in some fashion, at least for awhile. Until/Unless something like the OTL Hapsburg experiment in Mexico happens?

3. Native Americans. Needless to say, while perhaps lacking the outright genocide the Americans caused after they took over, France will probably not be kind to the Natives. Land will be taken and sold to white folks, Deiases will run rampant and customs will be attacked. It might be slower then OTL, probably no more final.

But I could see French California being ok with more Asian settlement/workers then OTL Americans were comfortable with. If France picks up Hawaii or something, could create a immigration stream across the Pacific.
 
The issue is more that the US is close and really freaking big, and California very far away from France, while Germany is just across the border...
Not that the US will inevitably end up buying/conquering California, but France would need a lot of dominoes falling just right to avoid any dangerous continental entanglements, while the US was, so long as it was capable, going to strongly desire a Pacific Port somewhere, and the Gold Rush is going to result in a lot of Yankee freebooters....
That said- the US purchasing part of California, or even going for broke against Britain and taking Vancouver/Pacific Canada (or hell, all of Canada.... this probably butterflies the Mexican-American War, since solving the 54-40 crisis was a major factor in freeing the US from the danger of British intervention) would rather substantively ease the pressure.

Yeah other people have said it but I disagree, and I massively disagree with your assertion that the US couldn't win a land war on the North American continent against France in 1838. At this stage the US population was growing very rapidly, it's economy was taking off and France would have had a huge line of logistics to supply California. You're underplaying the strength of the US.

Edit: In 1838 France's population was 34, 600,000. US population was 17,069,453. France would have to hold land an ocean and a continent away. This is why I say France's best bet would be to sell the land because they couldn't hold it.

The US is closer to California on paper, but in practice it ended in Missouri, and there is no infrastructure connecting California to the US or even Oregon to the rest of the US, the difficulty of sending supplies through thousands of kilometers of trails would be at least on par with sailing around South America. The US simply can't support many thousands of troops on the other side of the rockies ITTL. OTL during the Mexican American War the US invaded New Mexico with 1700 troops, and California with less than 700 counting local volunteers. In my opinion if the US is able to use the trails through Nevada, Texas and New Mexico they could send and supply a force of 2500 - 3500 men, if they can't go through these southern trails I don't think that they would be able to send more than 500 men. Meanwhile at the same period France was able to land a force 3000 troops in Vietnam, if they send the same kind of force to the Pacific Coast of North America it would easily occupy or destroy all important settlements in Oregon before joining any French troops already in California.

Meanwhile on the other coast the Americans would also need to build up their forces manyfold in order to have a minimal chance of resisting the French counter attack, there is no way that the American Navy can resist the French Navy if the US doesn't prop up their Navy to 1900 levels, if they go with the kind of Navy that the US had during most of the 19th century they are obliterated or forced to stay in port, and that would open the American Coastline to not only bombardment, but outright invasion.

If the US has Texas ITTL that would probably be the best target for the French, as taking Texas would also protect California, if Texas is not part of the US then New Orleans would be the next on the list. In the end the US could very well lose a lot of territories instead of gaining some. I also didn't even mention the possibility of the French giving weapons to the natives.
 
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USA is NOT right next door. It has an expansive, undeveloped and largely unexplored wilderness between the upper Louisiana Territory and Alta California. Remember, Texas is not part of the USA at this time, and even if it was, there's a massive desert between it and California.

France has just fought a war in Mexico, and still has military assets there, or in California.

Going to war against Mexico was a closely contested affair, and that was against a woefully disadvantaged foe. USA will not muster the willingness to take on a first world power. USA will focus on absorbing Texas and pushing the border as far west as possible by all means shy of going to war. USA is also in a diplomatic battle with Britain over possession of the Oregon Territory.

If France takes the attitude of "eh, we got it, but we aren't going to do much with it", then yeah selling it to the USA makes sense. In all likelihood, this is the road traveled.

But, IF France takes the attitude of "we got it, we want it, and holy shit this is some nice land with precious metals, we're going to develop it and keep it", the USA will have to fight to get it, and that won't happen, because it won't be easy. USA liked easy wars. They nearly went under in the War of 1812, and won't be looking to engage in another major expensive war.
 
I would think the Franco-Prussian War (or failing that, WWI's equivalent) are when the US might start sniffing around and some sort of crisis or confrontation occurs. Post ACW the US is going to be the #2 or #1 power in the world, and increasingly looking to secure a Pacific Port, whereas France is unlikely to feel the necessity of confronting the US over a distant colony.

Alternately, well, the Germans might be able to offer California to the US for joining against the Entente.
 
Small variation, If at some point probably before 1838 there is a large francophone population in Texas ( borders Louisiane or refugees from Canada) that look to France as the mother country you may get the Pastry war including independence for Texas, and colonisation but that really tends to affect Mexico more than the US. The settler population of California is small so its possible there could be a Francophone separatist movement that wins on the basis of biggest little army in town.

T
 
I would think the Franco-Prussian War (or failing that, WWI's equivalent) are when the US might start sniffing around and some sort of crisis or confrontation occurs. Post ACW the US is going to be the #2 or #1 power in the world, and increasingly looking to secure a Pacific Port, whereas France is unlikely to feel the necessity of confronting the US over a distant colony.

Alternately, well, the Germans might be able to offer California to the US for joining against the Entente.
Hmmm.... interesting possibilities.
The most likely is very mild French development of the region, ala French Louisiana, although any discovery of precious metals is going to spark a boom. Minimal French presence makes USA takeover a good possibility.

Alternately, though, if we posit a gold rush and firm French control, 30 years is a good amount of time to effect a Franco centric colony with some infrastructure. When F-P war leaves France in chaos, California may decide to go independent. Yes, USA could forcefully take the new country, but is the USA in the mood a few years after the massive ACW? With OTL Mexican-American war being butterflied, does USA political situation still lead to OTL's civil war? Might there be different presidents? different military lessons/preparedness? There's going to be a different Mexico, and the whole French adventure of the 60's is a different beast, or butterflied. Perhaps here, we end up with a French dominated Mexican kingdom. Which may have butterflies in France, which may have butterflies in Europe. If we assume, for simplicity sake, OTL except now we have a viable French colony in California, there's going to be some covetous glances thrown that way. Germany may demand it. USA will definitely want it. Are there any Nap III royalty around to flee to California to start a kingdom there? Perhaps the colony would prefer to join the kingdom of Mexico?

WWI is a very long ways away. Any French effort at all, even if minimal, will have created a colony too big to easily be absorbed if they don't want to be.
 
With a POD at the Pastry War many butterflies could rise, for example we must think about the relationship between France and Mexico and its many separatist movements, what will be the policy of France in regards to Mexico? Are they going to make it a puppet? Balkhanize it? Will there be a Texan Revolution? If there is a Texan revolution France can support Mexico or they could make Texas another puppet. Also, Oregon, would Britain want to keep Oregon if France had California? They could fear that Oregon would end up as another French territory if left with the US, or maybe not and they would do the same as OTL just to have something between them and the French.

What about the Civil War? Would it happen without Texas, California and the Mexican Cession? If it happens wouldn't France be tempted to intervene at least as a "mediator"?

We must also think about what happens in Europe, is Bismarck going to be chancellor like OTL? Will Prussia still win its wars? If Austria had better weapons or France a better mobilization Prussia could well lose one of them...

Even if France just leaves the US be and do what it wants until it becomes more powerful than France itself by 1890-1900, will the US still want to annex California knowing that it is populated by many hundreds of thousands of Francophones (and probably Hispanophones too)?
 
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Very interesting approach. A French San Francisco sounds very cool.

I guess we're projecting the our image of the superpower post war US into the early 19th century. One thing is to defeat Spain as late as 1898; to deal with France, as early as 1838, is a completely different thing.

I can see France holding California indefinitely and that can easily coexist with the US as OTL Canada does.
 
Will there be a Texan Revolution? If there is a Texan revolution France can support Mexico or they could make Texas another puppet. Also, Oregon, would Britain want to keep Oregon if France had California?
Texan revolution predates the Pastry War. A POD of the PW likely pushes Texas pretty quickly into the arms of the USA.
I'm guessing Britain plays nice with the USA just as OTL.
In my post just above yours, I posited several butterflies. The French adventure in the 60's is absolutely a different beast.
 
While it is unlikely to imagine the same amount of colonists coming to California from France as say, the Americans flooded the region with historically, there was historically a significant French component in the Gold Rush: up to 1/6 of the 49er's were French to my recollection. A gold rush will happen eventually and if the French themselves own the territory it is probable that they will constitute an even larger percentage, while the geography much better matches settlement there than in say, Algeria or New Caledonia, the main other French settlement regions.

There was historically a decent amount of French interest in taking California so it isn't unreasonable to imagine.

I would suggest that California would end up substantially more ethnically diverse, probably both in terms of European immigrants (with the normal basket of Latin immigrants that the French brought along with them, plus a diverse cross section of European immigrants), and also in Asian immigrants. However, the population as a whole will be smaller. This might have some positive impacts on the Indian population at least, who will probably keep greater autonomy for longer, although just like with the Americans they will be ruthlessly squashed whenever the question of gold comes up. Regardless, it will also fit very well into the theme of the old French North America, certain to be extensively present in French propaganda, particularly since some French Canadian trappers did reach California. The convicts routed to New California historically will probably be sent to California instead. There would be very substantial investment into agriculture, and probably a fast pick up on wine and specialty crops. I doubt that, extending this to the modern day, that California will ever become the American high technology, economic center of Western North America: It will probably look more like Australia, massive, relatively low density, rich from lots of resources, but mostly focused on extraction and agriculture. With some benefits about shipping products between Asia and America.

It also seems likely that the French will pursue the Panama Canal with greater vigor, although whether they will also pursue it with greater intelligence is up for question: their original plan was completely unworkable after all. There was substantial interest in France at the time about propping up the Latin American states to attempt to contain the United States, which might also go along with this. This ties into the question raised above about defense: in the short term, given the more powerful French navy, the terrible logistics of trying to march overland to California, and the ability of the French to pour in troops by sea, they have nothing to fear from the Americans. In the long run, this will change, with greater American population and industrial power, and the development of railroads. The principal question is whether the Americans will still desire however, to fight France for California: Mexico was an easy foe and more ideologically justifiable than war against France. But it could go either way in any case.

I don't see any reason to suppose that the Americans would automatically be animated with a desire to crush France over California, after all not getting the northern part of the Oregon territory was accepted and no one today in the US cares that Vancouver is Canadian and not American. I am sure there is an alternate universe where we annexed Cuba, as often almost happened, and there are threads there about Cuba being independent, and plenty of responses about how the Americans would never stand for it and would invade the island. Hard to be revanchist about a place you never held in the first place, except from the standpoint of another universe.
 
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