evolutionary TL: for the birds
- Thread starter aware of emptiness
- Start date
Hapsburg said:
Oh, I'm sure they could hold a spear, probably make one too. But could they throw one properly? Considering how much less force and accuracy their foot would have over a human arm and hand, I have a hard time imagining them being able to toss it without it just bouncing off of the target.
Of course, they could possibly hold it in their feet as they fly and lunge directly into something, letting go at the very last second. Unless they were very manuverable in flight, this could turn out poorly though, as it means they'd have to get really close to the target and then fly upward at an almost 90 degree angle.
Hapsburg
Banned
Yeah, tossing it like a javelin would be hard, and probably wouldn't work. Now, stabbing it like a spear is meant to be done is a different story. What would make sense is if they held it in thier feet, and did a falcon-like thing and dive in at 200-300 mph, and just stab the spear into thier enemy. That would work, especially if these aves sapiens have eagle-like eyesight.eschaton said:
Thier foe would be really messed up by that.
Hapsburg said:
These birds have already been posited as being very cooperative. Why couldn't one bird hold the flint to be knapped in one of its feet, while a second used the knapping hammer?
And once you get into the era of cooperation with humans, the opportunities for sharing complementary skills would be enormous. Humans could make tools for the birds (probably often from scraps derived from the making of human tools), while the birds would be able to use their ability to fly to become superior scouts, trackers and lookouts.
Hapsburg
Banned
Hmmm...like an early form as the arms trade?Martinus Paduei said:
Now, that would be good. Perhaps the humans make the spears for them, while the birds give the humans some kind of fruits and nuts that grow only in the tree-canopy, ones that are incredibly healthy and tasty?
What do you think about this, Emptiness?
Hapsburg said:Yeah, tossing it like a javelin would be hard, and probably wouldn't work. Now, stabbing it like a spear is meant to be done is a different story. What would make sense is if they held it in thier feet, and did a falcon-like thing and dive in at 200-300 mph, and just stab the spear into thier enemy. That would work, especially if these aves sapiens have eagle-like eyesight.
Thier foe would be really messed up by that.
If they could get it right in the eye.... ouch!
Perhaps Humans and Aves grow symbiotically interlinked? Humans take down larger prey/enemies while Aves get hard to reach fruit.
Just one quick question. Is an individual aves as smart as an individual human? Are we exact equals? And how exactly to Aves and humans talk. I know parrots can copy human speech, so I guess it would be that. Oh, and good thinking about having Tengu be the name of the Chinese Aves. Could the European ones be Gargoyles?
Don't forget bower birds and their fancy bowers. Birds-of-Paradise, who live in the same areas, also build bowers. Both groups have fancy plumage and bowers, and there's plenty of overlap as to which species have fancier plumage and which have fancier bowers. But how smart are they compared to parrots?
I hope somebody writes an AH.COM episode about this!
I hope somebody writes an AH.COM episode about this!
I was thinking of whether or not to spread the birds to the middle-east and onto europe? To get to there, the conditions are kind of harsh for a tropical parrot species. You have to either cross the dry central asian steppes (with little vegetation and wide fluctuations in heat/cold through the year) or the himalayas. Or should I just have them stay in their current range, and have contact with the humans from the "West" later on.
By the way, the reason I thought of SE Asia/Indonesia as the birthplace for the bird civilization as opposed to Africa and S. America (the other two places where tropical parrots are found) is because in Africa, they would meet up and interfere/be in direct competition with human's early ape lineage, and if they originated in S. America, they would be isolated from humans until relatively late. I wanted something in between.
By the way, the reason I thought of SE Asia/Indonesia as the birthplace for the bird civilization as opposed to Africa and S. America (the other two places where tropical parrots are found) is because in Africa, they would meet up and interfere/be in direct competition with human's early ape lineage, and if they originated in S. America, they would be isolated from humans until relatively late. I wanted something in between.
I say stay in SE Asia, Australasia and Polynesia at least until the Age of Exploration.
20 000 -10 000 yrs: By now, the humans form many bands/tribes, except that in the bird-dominated areas, human tribes are loosely associated with a group of birds similarly from that region. Each develops, mutually a different language and customs.
At this stage, humanity has architecture consisting mostly of huts into small villages of thousands of people, materials mostly pottery, ceramics, wood, stone, fur clothing etc. It is mainly our species, with our workable hands that develop this initially, but the birds also start to learn and gain from this. Specialization starts to occur, as they did in OTL. Some people start to be chiefs, craftsmen, warriors (to fight neighbouring tribes), hunters, (rice) farmers while the birds, relatively limited in manual flexibility, nonetheless help with the sowing of seeds, gathering of fruits etc. The birds, with their excellent hearing, sight and memory, can act as scouts, the eyes and ears of the tribe. The birds are also extremely artistic and paint/decorate the villages and charm humans with song and dence. The birds act also as shamans in religious ceremony. Trade arises among the people and birds as well as with neighbouring tribes.
-Humans move into the Americas via Bering strait (around this time if I recall correctly)
At this stage, humanity has architecture consisting mostly of huts into small villages of thousands of people, materials mostly pottery, ceramics, wood, stone, fur clothing etc. It is mainly our species, with our workable hands that develop this initially, but the birds also start to learn and gain from this. Specialization starts to occur, as they did in OTL. Some people start to be chiefs, craftsmen, warriors (to fight neighbouring tribes), hunters, (rice) farmers while the birds, relatively limited in manual flexibility, nonetheless help with the sowing of seeds, gathering of fruits etc. The birds, with their excellent hearing, sight and memory, can act as scouts, the eyes and ears of the tribe. The birds are also extremely artistic and paint/decorate the villages and charm humans with song and dence. The birds act also as shamans in religious ceremony. Trade arises among the people and birds as well as with neighbouring tribes.
-Humans move into the Americas via Bering strait (around this time if I recall correctly)
10 000- 7 000 years ago
This is the age of domestication
Wheat agriculture spreads to India and China from the Fertile Crescent, where some of the birds and humans pick it up. Rice, nonetheless is still the main staple. For the Tengu, however, living in the more temperate (but not frigid) areas the added bonus provides a useful boost. These North-east Asian dwellers have a less reliable food source and population is unstable and occasionally crashes if their crops fail, unlike the S.E Asian dwelling Garudas who can obtain much of the tropical fruits they desire, especially preferring the recently domesticated bananas. The third Australian subspecies domesticates the weeping rice grass as food, and like the Tengu, have to live in a more dry and less rainforest-like environment. Consequently both the Aussies and Tengu also consume more meat protein by hunting small mammals and occasionally large ones (In this TL, the large marsupials go extinct as they did in ours), and are more omnivorous leading toward meat preference than the fruit-loving Garudas.
The same animals (Bovines, sheep, pigs etc.) are domesticated here as in OTL. In particular, the region we're dealing with have water buffalo and chickens, ducks and geese. The parrots get accustomed to eating meat and yes, even the meat of fowl (however, since chickens and waterfowl aren't too intelligent, as opposed to other birds, they have no qualms about eating them). One animal that is not domesticated (at least in the area with the parrots) in this TL is the dog. The parrots fear/loath large carnivores like felines and canines and can't stand having them around. Humans manage without dogs anyway.
This is the age of domestication
Wheat agriculture spreads to India and China from the Fertile Crescent, where some of the birds and humans pick it up. Rice, nonetheless is still the main staple. For the Tengu, however, living in the more temperate (but not frigid) areas the added bonus provides a useful boost. These North-east Asian dwellers have a less reliable food source and population is unstable and occasionally crashes if their crops fail, unlike the S.E Asian dwelling Garudas who can obtain much of the tropical fruits they desire, especially preferring the recently domesticated bananas. The third Australian subspecies domesticates the weeping rice grass as food, and like the Tengu, have to live in a more dry and less rainforest-like environment. Consequently both the Aussies and Tengu also consume more meat protein by hunting small mammals and occasionally large ones (In this TL, the large marsupials go extinct as they did in ours), and are more omnivorous leading toward meat preference than the fruit-loving Garudas.
The same animals (Bovines, sheep, pigs etc.) are domesticated here as in OTL. In particular, the region we're dealing with have water buffalo and chickens, ducks and geese. The parrots get accustomed to eating meat and yes, even the meat of fowl
(however, since chickens and waterfowl aren't too intelligent, as opposed to other birds, they have no qualms about eating them). One animal that is not domesticated (at least in the area with the parrots) in this TL is the dog. The parrots fear/loath large carnivores like felines and canines and can't stand having them around. Humans manage without dogs anyway.I'm a bit undecisive about how this TL should progress, this being my first TL and all (I'm a relative newcomer with my interest in AH, and even real history in general).
That's the thing with PODs real far back. Should everything just develop in the same manner as OTL (as in the same civilizations, starting with Mesopotamia, Egypt, China, Greece, Rome, rise of the West etc.) until the Europeans meet the birds while exploring/colonizing the "exotic" far East, or would all this be butterflied away. Any suggestions?
That's the thing with PODs real far back. Should everything just develop in the same manner as OTL (as in the same civilizations, starting with Mesopotamia, Egypt, China, Greece, Rome, rise of the West etc.) until the Europeans meet the birds while exploring/colonizing the "exotic" far East, or would all this be butterflied away. Any suggestions?
Lack of dogs, to do everything from aiding in the hunt to providing sled pulling to guarding flocks to straight up companionship will have a HUGELY damaging impact on Humans. Even the lack of cats will have a serious negitive effect as farming begins, as they are critical to limiting the losses to rodents & holding back, to a degree, the illnesses they spread. I would suggest that dogs be allowed, with cats being tolerated as "civilization" begins.
Birds may be able to do some of these tasks, but not all of them, and not with a fraction of the effectiveness of mammals. Just something to consider.
Birds may be able to do some of these tasks, but not all of them, and not with a fraction of the effectiveness of mammals. Just something to consider.